Fantasie Impromptu Project

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[ajspiano]

huge progress.

Liking the look of the hand here. You look so much more stable and balanced on and between all the notes. You look like your arm moves with your hand properly..  I could go on. Its a long way better, There is clearly much much less negative tension in your hand/arm and ofcourse the 5th finger..

There's no doubt still some work, i assume that if you speed up and play the whole phrase you likely revert to building tension - but thats ok, it takes some time to get in properly into your system.

If there's anything that I can offer at this point (i dont want to say much, because you obviously have a practice regime going here)

...its that at the top of the phase you play in a group of notes from the top B, and finish with the thumb on E. Then you're next group is 3 over and so on. This is the only place where you look noticeably tense.

I think you should try moving the group..  so that the group of notes goes from before and after the 3 over. So that as you articulate the thumb, your fingers come over ready for the next note..  so the group might be the last 4 notes of bar 7, rather than the last 3 and the first note of bar 8..   does that make sense?

I touched on that a little bit in my video..  I mentioned allowing the motion of the thumb to actively bring the hand/fingers into position for the next note, rather than finishing the thumb, then trying to move the fingers over to the note.

[costicina]

BRAVA Choo Choo!!!     

That’s the way one should isolate and  practice troublesome passages!!!! If you’ll interiorize and put in pracatice sistematically this approach, you’ll make your way in piano playing, with outstanding results.. I’ll take you as an example. . KEEP ON,  I beg you!!!!!

Margherita

[dire_tonic]

I use 4232 there..

I learnt it as
232123542321235

Have been trialling
232124532321235

The 1245 seems to fit more comfortably over the notes in the first hand position Fx G# C# E - it Avoids stretch between 2 and 3. Thing is that using 3 on the C# should perhaps make the move to the 2nd hand position smoother. Stretching is bad news though, have to practice getting the arm across which is one of my dodgy habits trailing over from learning this price when my technique was subpar (it still is, just not quite so much)

I'm beginning to suffer schizophrenia with the fingering in FI.  There are no so many places where I've worked on alternatives that I'm completely at the mercy of whichever muscle memory happens to dominate at a particular instant.

RH bar 5 is always a problem for me although if I play it several times I can usually build up the smoothness reasonably quickly - I'm just no good at a cold start.

I've tried your newer scheme and while I prefer the 2-4 option (up from G#- C#) to the overly-stretching 2-3, I'm not yet sure about the following 3 on the D# which feels almost like it's crossing over the 4.  Intersting though - I'll give it a bit more of a try...

[dire_tonic]

This is a very short video to show what I've been working on with Birba. He is trying to help me lose or reduce the tension in my R.H. fifth finger.

That's very commendable, Choo.  I suspect at my age my bad keyboard habits are baked in but I'll be watching with interest to see the benefit this brings you and how soon you'll be able to realise it.

[ajspiano]

@diretonic - then try 232124542321235 ? ...eitherway I would settle on something to stick with sooner rather than later. In this situation I think there are many different variations that are sufficient.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks AJ, Margherita and Dire Tonic, for your comments.

Dire Tonic: When I've had problems with a particular section, I've always found very slow practice helpful. I mean, really slow practice and then building up speed slowly. I usually use a metronome, too. Have you tried the staccato leggiero method first? I still do that. It's probably just a phase you're going through and one of these days, it will suddenly be fine again.

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[birba]

I don't think I've ever met anyone with as much determination as you!  Gambatte kudasai!

[dire_tonic]

Thanks AJ, Margherita and Dire Tonic, for your comments.

Dire Tonic: When I've had problems with a particular section, I've always found very slow practice helpful. I mean, really slow practice and then building up speed slowly. I usually use a metronome, too. Have you tried the staccato leggiero method first? I still do that. It's probably just a phase you're going through and one of these days, it will suddenly be fine again.

To be honest I haven't been nearly careful or patient enough to do really slow practice so I'm going to try and be more strict with myself.

Yesterday, I felt I was playing FI worse than a month ago and this morning I was playing it worse than yesterday!!  So I seem to be time travelling in reverse  - a bit depressing considering the hours I've poured into this.  Fortunately I haven't yet reached the point where I'm discouraged - neither are you, I hope.


So, onwards and upwards....

[dire_tonic]

@diretonic - then try 232124542321235 ? ...eitherway I would settle on something to stick with sooner rather than later. In this situation I think there are many different variations that are sufficient.

"Settle on something sooner rather than later" - that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for helping me snap out of my indecision!

[candlelightpiano]

I don't think I've ever met anyone with as much determination as you!  Gambatte kudasai!

How nice of you to say that, Birba! Thank you. I feel the same way about you since it takes a great deal of determination -and talent - to become a maestro, which is what you are.

Gambatte Kudasai to you, too!

[candlelightpiano]

Yesterday, I felt I was playing FI worse than a month ago and this morning I was playing it worse than yesterday!!  So I seem to be time travelling in reverse  - a bit depressing considering the hours I've poured into this.  Fortunately I haven't yet reached the point where I'm discouraged - neither are you, I hope

Perhaps you're practicing too much! I still don't practice more than 2 hours a day and I spread my practice out into about 20 minute sessions, playing with my cat during break or posting on PianoStreet, checking emails, etc. After 2 hours, I feel like the law of diminishing returns apply. I'm not discouraged. In fact, I've feeling very high and enthusiastic, like a champagne bottle bubbling over!!  Maybe I had too much to drink!   

[dire_tonic]

Perhaps you're practicing too much! I still don't practice more than 2 hours a day and I spread my practice out into about 20 minute sessions, playing with my cat during break or posting on PianoStreet, checking emails, etc. After 2 hours, I feel like the law of diminishing returns apply. I'm not discouraged. In fact, I've feeling very high and enthusiastic, like a champagne bottle bubbling over!!  Maybe I had too much to drink!   

I've noticed your cat in your videos.  Maybe I need to get a cat, but...too much to drink?... first thing in the morning?

I'm shocked!

[candlelightpiano]

I've noticed your cat in your videos.  Maybe I need to get a cat, but...too much to drink?... first thing in the morning?

I'm shocked!

Yes, that's Bangkok in the videos. He doesn't seem to realize he is a cat. He follows me everywhere, like a puppy and is completely devoted to me. He's just the most adorable boy. I was just kidding about drinking!

[unholeee]

thank you birba for the videos!!  i just applied the first technique you were showing to the start of moonlight 3 and runs in polonaise in g# minor, i was having troubles with. I remember reading parallel sets but they didnt make much sense, the problem though was the jumps! i just bought a bach beginner book and hanon exercises. but now they'll have to wait

[candlelightpiano]

thank you birba for the videos!!  i just applied the first technique you were showing to the start of moonlight 3 and runs in polonaise in g# minor, i was having troubles with. I remember reading parallel sets but they didnt make much sense, the problem though was the jumps! i just bought a bach beginner book and hanon exercises. but now they'll have to wait

Which first technique are you talking about?

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[ajspiano]

look at your 5th finger at the bottom of the phrase..    need to slow down there maybe? iron it out a little more? You must be just about sick of such broken down focused practice? you are doing very well though..

EDIT:
eliminating this kind of playing habit is a really tough gig when you're trying to do it in such a short time like this. You're doing great, and your focus and discipline is extremely admirable..

[unholeee]

Which first technique are you talking about?

ah it might not have been the first, i was too lazy to amend it. it was the g# g# c c#
f# f# c c# you were doing when you'd stop on the first note of the next section.

[candlelightpiano]

look at your 5th finger at the bottom of the phrase..    need to slow down there maybe? iron it out a little more? You must be just about sick of such broken down focused practice? you are doing very well though..

EDIT:
eliminating this kind of playing habit is a really tough gig when you're trying to do it in such a short time like this. You're doing great, and your focus and discipline is extremely admirable..

Thanks for your comments and observations, AJ.  Yes, I saw it during playback.    I'm not sick of this practice as I work on the other sections of the piece and don't spend the entire practice session on this. Tonight I was hoping to record bars 30 - 40 but it was such a mess ...maybe tomorrow.

[candlelightpiano]

ah it might not have been the first, i was too lazy to amend it. it was the g# g# c c#
f# f# c c# you were doing when you'd stop on the first note of the next section.

You've lost me there. Are you talking about Fantasie Impromptu? If you are, what measure?

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[candlelightpiano]

I just memorized the last page of FI!!    

[costicina]

Hi Choo Choo,
great job!!! I let to other more competent members like Birba the technical details.
But I' impressed by your fine, exquisite musicality. You feel so deeply the music.... And I like very much your "touch", especially in the p and pp parts... brava bravissima!!!!

Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Margherita. I need to sing the melody a lot more and the trills don't sound good. I think my LH sounds too loud. It always sounds too loud on the video but when I play it back on the piano recorder, it doesn't sound so loud. Anyway, I'm hoping to record another video today, perhaps bars 30 - 40 or the octave passage. Have you played this piece?

[dire_tonic]

The feedback from Birba regarding the last video is that it was very good and I will now work in two groups. "Listen, listen, listen for the evenness of the 16th notes," he said. 

I made a video this afternoon of the middle section. My memory was tested in some areas.  

I like the way you're playing this, so gracefully.  There's one element here which I think might enhance it but I've only run through the moderato section a couple of times so I don't know it yet and I might be wrong.    In the first bar of the right hand melody ( and likewise where this rhythm pattern crops up many times through the moderato), the last 4 quavers (Bb, Ab,Db,Eb) are playing against the 6 of the LH so I suspect this is a 2 against 3 rhythm - much easier than the  3 against 4 we've had to come to grips with!

If you listen to some of the youtube virtuosi playing it you'll hear what I mean.  In fact because of the ornament on the Bb the timing of the Ab seems more flexible but Db, Eb in that bar seems to be most often played as a 2 against the 3 of the LH.

I think that's the idea but I could be wrong! Try it and see what you think...

[costicina]

Hi Choo Choo,

I tried to play this piece many years ago, but only the first part. IMO your LH is not too loud. I think taht the digital piano doesn't help in lyrical, expressive section like this. As soon as you'll have an acoustic piano, everything will be (and will sound) easier and better. But really, your touch is wonderful, both delicate and vibrant...
I'm sincerely impressed...

[candlelightpiano]

DIRE TONIC: Thanks for the suggestion, which is a very good one. You're the more observant of the two of us, as usual! Remember the off beat 5th finger accent? Ha ha! I'll go and watch the pros play this section again. How is your piece coming along? Have you got over your little problem?

MARGHERITA: Thanks once again for your comments, which I really appreciate. I'll probably record this section again, once I've listened to the pros play it many times. I can't wait for my baby grand but I haven't ordered it yet as we need to move furniture or give some away. I'm also going away soon so it'll have to wait till I return.

[caioramos]

Choo! I liked your video very much! I think it is as you say, the recording makes your LH louder than it really is actually, so I won't complain about that again haha

I'm not good at pointing exactly what the problem is, so I will let Birba do it. But I feel that the melodic part on you RH is playing some parts at a different tempo than what it's written on the paper.. it's like instead of playing "taaa-taaa-taaa" you are playing "taaa..ta-daa" you know.. It's the poly rhythm thing between the 2 hands again. You are making this mistake everytime on bars 43, than when it repeats on bar 51. My guess is that you are not comfortable enough with the trill on the first note.

Also, the first 2 opening bars, that is bar 41 and 42. I think you should put more passion into it, you are coming from a very energetic strong section, that is bars 37-40, played in ff, when you get to those bars I would play bar 41 stronger on the way up and then play more softly and piano bar 42, you can even play a little faster.

Overall it's good, you memorized the whole thing. But I feel it needs more passion, it's what they say about "color" you know, I feel little difference in your dynamics, it's like the entire thing is gray to me. You have to put more soul into that, notice the accents and the change in dynamics and make your RH sing more.

That's what I think, but Birba will surely give a better explanation for all this

Keep going Choo!
Kyle

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Kyle, for all your comments and observations, which are correct. Dire Tonic pointed out those two poly rhythm measures as well and I was watching YouTube - Yundi Li and 10 year old Enzo - and they definitely fit the 2 into 3 well. Also true about the dynamic shading and lack of passion. I know it but I guess I'm busy trying to remember the notes!! It's not a good excuse. There's never a good excuse, especially the lack of passion in this area. I don't know - I feel the passion when I hear it or watch someone play it but can't convey it when I play. I need to watch Katsuris's videos again for this section where he talks about playing HS and Tell your Secrets etc. I think I'll use a metronome to help me with the "taaa-taaa-taaa" rhythm.

Good to have you back here. I'll keep working on this area and hope to record bars 30 to 40 today.

[caioramos]

Hahaha, I actually think it is a good excuse saying your not safe with the notes, it's fresh memorized, there's no way you can play it confident enough to actually let your musicality flow freely, it's what I've been talking to my teacher here, it's quite frustrating when you want to express something but your technique still not allow you to. But I think it's good to point out so you can make sure to try a better playing when you have the section more into your fingertips.

[dire_tonic]

DIRE TONIC: Thanks for the suggestion, which is a very good one. You're the more observant of the two of us, as usual! Remember the off beat 5th finger accent? Ha ha! I'll go and watch the pros play this section again. How is your piece coming along? Have you got over your little problem?

'over my little problem' - yes I think so.  It's like the monkey on the greasy pole, up 3 feet only to slide back 2 feet.  Still problems with bar 20-24 with the D#-F# so that by the time I get to bar 24 I've seized up and I'm playing them reversed (F#-D#) instead.  I suspect a failing motor function in my brain (ha ha!).

Regarding expression, I'm certain you shouldn't worry about it until you know the notes.  I'd go further. In the agitato section I don't think there's any point in worrying about expression until you know not only the notes but can play it at a reasonable speed also because the dynamics don't make any sense at a slow practise tempo. 

Bars 30, 31, 32 the fingering is so important (33 etc are more or less determined by the notes) it might be worth experimenting with some alternatives before you commit them to memory.

Best of luck!

[candlelightpiano]

KYLE:  Yeah, when I practice that middle section, I don't know why I keep forgetting the notes or I get the wrong notes in the left hand so I'm busy concentrating on getting the right notes even though I'm trying to make the melody sing. If you listen to me again, you might notice that I played the wrong left hand notes in a measure! Or that I was stumbling in another one. Terrible!  

DIRE TONIC: Good to hear that you've overcome your frustrating area. I also have problems with the 5th finger accented passage that you mentioned. Similar thing - tightening up, I think. The thumb accents appear to be okay now. I will record that passage again, today or tomorrow, for this blog. I've already memorized bars 30 - 40, though like the middle section, I seem to have a memory problem in the LH of bar 31. I'm in the mood to do a lot of recordings!! Ha ha! They will either entertain you guys or put you guys to sleep!    But I think they make the blog more interesting and it's good fun having you talk about this and that measure with me.

[candlelightpiano]

Birba has seen my video and he says my LH is far too stiff and I need to loosen up. It did look stiff! And he made me a video so I'll be working on this middle section - a LOT!!

I recorded bars 30 - 40. Quite messy but I'll have it here as soon as it's uploaded, probably tonight.

Thanks so much, Birba!

[candlelightpiano]

[caioramos]

Wow Choo, this is better than I thought it would be, especially bars 37-40

[candlelightpiano]

Really? I'm surprised! Thanks! It's still a huge mess but I did record this on the first try. But it's too slow, obviously. I will work up the speed but I'm waiting for Birba's feedback. How about yours? How is it?

[caioramos]

hahaha I need to record mine still, I will eventually for sure! 

[candlelightpiano]

I'm sure yours is a lot better. I didn't practice this page all that much and I was still struggling to remember the LH of bar 31 but today, I remembered!!  Just in time for a recording!!

[costicina]

At this point, it's official: the FI is YOURS, you have won your battle. Just a bit of extra work to fix memorization and to speed up a little (but judging from your technique, it will not be a problem for you), and you'll be able to post a beautif performance of the whole piece.
And it's not a bad idea to take a rest from it while in Jamaica. Often the pieces need to "rest", like good wine in the barrel.
We all are proud of you        
....and the Scherzo is waiting for you!!!!!

Ciao
Margherita

[dire_tonic]

 - I hadn't realised you'd already sorted out these bars, good work, Choo!

The next job is to get it up to speed.  I think you mentioned in an earlier post that it wasn't necessary to fly through the agitato and while I think that's right I also recall in another discussion that a respectable minimum should be about half-note = 70.  That seems right to me - particularly in the light of Katsaris' masterclass where he talks about trying to mimic the sound of the rise and fall of a wind.

Anyway, it's only a matter of time now!

[candlelightpiano]

MARGHERITA, DIRE TONIC AND KYLE:  Thanks, all, for your encouragement and comments.

Yes, I will absolutely complete FI now. There's no question about it. I have a lot of work to do, though. In these bars, I have to speed up without muddling up. That will take a lot of work as I often have to slow down when my fingers run away with me! The tricky measures for me are bars 33 - 34, particularly bar 34.

Yes, I think a tempo of 70 to the half note would be about right. I think I should be able to achieve that, with a lot of practice, but at this time, I'm still working on bars 7 - 8 to make the 16th notes even and lose the tension. I'll have a video on that today.

Hoping to record a video of the octave passage again, too, and post it here today or tomorrow.  I'm in the mood to record videos but when I return from Jamaica, I'll be doing a lot of that, too. I think it keeps the thread interesting and in a way, it allows me to focus better on a certain section and getting feedback from all of you is very important in my progress.

DIRE TONIC: Have you received my email?

MARGHERITA: Yes, The Scherzo!

[dire_tonic]

DIRE TONIC: Have you received my email?

Hi Choo, I hadn't noticed the message flag since joining the forum but have received yours now and replied - many thanks.

Bars 33/34 - what a nightmare!  A double problem.  One is getting the power behind the fingers 5,4,3 the other is getting the accent on 5 which falls after the beat...

There's a Chopin etude, op 10 no 2 which focuses on strengthening 3,4,5 but I don't think I've got the patience for it.

[candlelightpiano]

I need to look into this etude you mentioned. I keep getting messed up on the descending passage of those two bars, particularly bar 34 so I keep having to slow down and practice hands separately. Those two bars are really the only problems for me here. The last three bars that Kyle was talking about earlier (bars 37 - 40) was hard initially. I watched Paul Barton's video about it but couldn't figure out what notes he was playing to practice for that run so I decided to just play it like it is. The long chromatic passage I simply cheated with the fingering and used regular chromatic fingering: 3 1 3 1 3 2 1 etc The fingering in the music was crazy, I thought. I also changed a couple of other fingerings. Have you practiced these bars (30 - 40)? Why don't you post snippets of video like I'm doing? It would be fun to see you play, too! I've been trying to get Kyle to post a video of his FI but no luck so far. He started two months before me so he's been working at it for 3 - 4 months now.

DIRE TONIC: Question about the polyrythm for the middle section: So the first and third notes of the RH are played with the first and 4th notes of the LH?

[dire_tonic]

I've got as far as 34 in fact and done most of my work up to there.  I've gone through 37-40 a few times but can't get much pace on this yet.  The RH technical problems are much the same as those at the end of the piece so I plan to do a blitz on both those sections after I've gone a bit further with the earlier sections.  I'm still intrigued by 13-24 and the various ways of playing this.  I'm finding it difficult to get it right.

Ok, I'll post up a vid of my struggle with  30-34 in the next couple of days.  Apologies for out-of-tune and badly damped piano (a bad workman always blames his tools!).

yep - on the middle section the polyrhythm is exactly as you summarised although one needs to make allowances for the ornament in the RH (I haven't studied the youtube 'masters' yet to see how they do it!).

[candlelightpiano]

So you're working on the last page of the piece, too? I've got it memorized, though not committed to memory yet. I find the stretches much more so on the last page than bars 37 - 40, which are only octave stretches.

Bars 13 - 24 is always a challenge though I think I've overcome the thumb accents and the pinky accents bars 17 - 19 are okay. It's those bars after that that's a problem with my RH running away with it. You'll see when I post a video today or tomorrow. Look forward to your video. Don't worry about the piano.

[ajspiano]

Op 10 no 2 is arguably the toughest of all the etudes. I wouldn't recommend tackling this without a teacher unless you intend to injure yourself..   That may seem a little over the top but it involves playing fast chromatics with 3,4 and 5 and chords at the same time using 1 and 2. If you do it the wrong way you put a lot of strain on yourself and the right way is fairly counter intuitive. I certainly wouldn't have come up with it without some guidance.

If you can find any threads about it you'll see a lot of people talking about experiencing pain in this piece and being unable to play all the way through.

Great progress choo, it's all coming together - very impressive. I have some ideas for the middle section I guess.. Just fairly subjective discussion on expression really. I think you know what I mean though anyway because you mentioned 'singing' the melody more.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  Good to see you back here!! Sure, I'd like your ideas on the middle section.

Thanks for informing us about Op 10 No 2 and the pitfalls involved in learning that piece. I don't think I'll go there!!    I'm really only interested in playing "party pieces" like FI.

[ajspiano]

AJ:  Good to see you back here!! Sure, I'd like your ideas on the middle section. Birba said my LH was far too stiff, that I needed to loosen up and he made me a video to demonstrate how I should move my hand and also included a tutorial on the middle section.

Dire Tonic has mentioned posting a video of his progress in the next few days. I'll be off to Jamaica for a week beginning Wed, Jan 25, so could you please check this thread and give Dire Tonic your feedback?

Thanks for informing us about Op 10 No 2 and the pitfalls involved in learning that piece. I don't think I'll go there!!      I'm really only interested in playing "party pieces" like FI.

I didnt mean to discourage anyone - just that it should be approached with a healthy amount of respect for its difficulty, and an open mind to learning how to move. It is fast, short, and impressive so probably counts as a party piece Though flight of the bumble bee is probably the more popular option for a super fast chromatic.

Will certainly be around the next few days. I was away for the weekend, which is why I had half disappeared. Now I'm back and badly sunburned from a day at the beach I couldnt play last night because my arms hurt too much..  I really should know better  :/