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Topic: Religion  (Read 69484 times)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #200 on: September 11, 2007, 08:26:26 PM
HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF.

Offline cmg

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Re: Religion
Reply #201 on: September 11, 2007, 08:54:28 PM
as i see it - if one medical association has precedence over another - who is to control how the government uses this.  will they use this for implanting chips - or other technological devices to track people.  using one medical association is VERY convenient.

the only 'problem' right now for the catholics is that the eu is convincing many nations to not have anti-abortion laws.  also, they recently put down a vote against man and woman being the only married state, and of course, battling in slovakia first with issues such as :

conscientious objection (if you don't belong to a seminary - consider your objection invalid and you go in the military anyways), abortion, fertilization, experimenting with human organs, embroys, cell research, euthanasia, cloning, sterilization.

now, if i am a christian and object to any or all of it - will this be included in the 'human rights act' of the eu?  of course, not.  they define the rights in a very limited manner.  even catholics have to swallow hard.  you see, it's a deal they are working out.  evil for evil.

i heard in the netherlands there are children who are in critical stages of health that are routinely euthanized.  what about the elderly?  what about mentally unstable.  this happened in the late 30's before the war and into the atrocities of WWII.  it's convenient because the world economy supposedly cannot handle all these people.  but, God is on His throne and He wouldn't make any more people than we can feed if we followed his precepts and gained blessings. 

I need a percodan.

No, I need TWO percodan.
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline cmg

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Re: Religion
Reply #202 on: September 11, 2007, 09:10:48 PM
HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF.

No, no.  Percodan won't be enough. 

Morphine, maybe.
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #203 on: September 11, 2007, 10:02:07 PM
i'm not the only one who believes we already have entered wwIII.  newt gingrich has been outspoken since june or july of 2006 when he publicly said the same.  unless a person is a complete ostrich - they have to take a side.  do you want the eu or not?  it's not like you can suddenly decide next year.  the banks actually have decided for us.  today - for the first time - i get an offer from capital one for a credit card with 5.99% interest for life.  do you know what machinations my mind went through.  i felt capital one SOLD OUT to something or someone.  i don't want to be indebted to the eu and would rather starve.

i'd rather pay debts off slowly and efficiently and do without than give someone else my national right of sovereignty.  what did our ancestors die for?  FREEDOM not sell-out.  all i think of is the various sacrifices during world wars of people for the cause, president washington at valley forge, and the early pilgrims when america was born.  did you know - like wiht nostradamus - everything comes around in 50, 70, 100, and 500 year cycles.  with nostradamus - he talked about the 500.  as did clement I - with his idea of the phoenix bird that rises every 500 years.  well, if you are counting back to 1492 (close to 500 years ago) you are seeing the birth of a nation.  now we are witnessing the DEATH.  literally americans are mourning because each of their blessings is being taken away.  even the panama canal.

which, btw - has decided to be widened!  how good of an idea is that with terrorism.  well, we don't own it now - so can we control it?  no blessings on jimmy carter for that idea - although i liked some of his others.  and what about gibralter for britain.  now it's not technically really owned by britain is it?  and it's massively tunnelled.  what for, do you wonder?  also, spain is building a highspeed rail link to and under gibralter.  i'm not saying people don't need it to work - all i'm saying is that we are increasingly less and less border secure.

supposedly this world order existed in the minds of a few elite for generations and is merely coming about as the logical order.  even beethoven's ode to joy is now used as european anthem?  how old is that - and what was that originally composed for.  napoleon UNTIL HE CROWNED HIMSELF EMPEROR.  then, beethoven was thoroughly disgusted in him and scribbled off his name from the dedication.  for good reason.  beethoven was for freedom.  not for tyranny.  this ode to joy for europe should be a sponge bob episode.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #204 on: September 11, 2007, 10:41:44 PM
then i want to know more about this advertisement which promises 'everything you want' - and even has a red seal in the pic - that looks strikingly similar to the seal of the holy roman emperors.
Then you go find out all about it, Susan...

it's wierd i know - but i've seen it three times.
An unblessed experiential trinity, for sure...

if it is not the catholic church who is providing this untitled 'how to get happiness ad'
But you just wrote (however implausibly) that it was! Do please make your mind up before wading in with such astonishing allegations...

- it is someone who is promising the wind right now
Probably one of Thal's farts, then...

and no real information about how to get it.  i feel it is a series
Of Thal's farts? Oh, please God (sorry!) no!...

- and warming people up to the idea of buying the euro.  you can laugh all you want - but that's what people are doing here anyways - to my CONSTERNATION.
That's an unlucky 13 capital letters, Susan. But you're talking nonsense again. Of course people buy the euro. And the pound. And the US dollar and all manner of other currencies - because there are currency speculators out there - i.e. the world over - who don't give as much as a dying duck about any individual currency or its past, present or future beyond the extent to which the value of any given one of them might help to make them a fast buck at any given (or stolen) time. What you write here is accordingly fatuous.

do you want to see free countries dissolve in days?
Did I say so? What is a "free" country anyway?

Anyway - I come to visit this section and what do I see?- "Religion by pianistimo"; given this and the sheer volume of what you write under such headings, one might almost be forgiven for assuming (if one is a frequenter of this forum) that no other kind is even admissible, let alone credible.

The climate is getting somewhat distressingly inclement around here as of right now...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #205 on: September 11, 2007, 10:45:59 PM
HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF.
And what are you doing, Susan?

Perhaps this repeating is somehow symptomatic of the overeating of an over-egged pudding...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #206 on: September 11, 2007, 10:48:16 PM
I need a percodan.

No, I need TWO percodan.
And just how many apiece do you suppose that the rest of us forummers might need?...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #207 on: September 11, 2007, 11:27:34 PM
i'm not the only one who believes we already have entered wwIII.
But who is/are the "we" here?

newt gingrich
Mon Dieu! (sorry!) - you can actually remember him?...

has been outspoken since june or july of 2006 when he publicly said the same.  unless a person is a complete ostrich
OK - so what's the difference between a Gingrich and and ostrich? (and please no one answer "head in the sand", since that is not a difference but a similarity)...

they have to take a side.  do you want the eu or not?
Who has to "take a side"? And which "side"? And what are the available "sides" in any case? Who are you addressing here? This is not an American issue at all and, likewise, it is not even an immediately pressing issue for UK, Sweden, Denmark or the other 12 more recently joined EU member states that have not adopted the euro as their currency.

it's not like you can suddenly decide next year.  the banks actually have decided for us.
The power of the banks is admittedly immense, but it is one that has little respect for any state boundaries, even though such boundaries still exist; there is therefore a potential, if not actual, conflict between the international banking system and the multiplicity of current international governmental infrastructures.

today - for the first time - i get an offer from capital one for a credit card with 5.99% interest for life.
So? - Bad deal. No 0% in sight. But then your country has been going through quite a few credit crunch woes of late, so let's not dwell unduly on this...

do you know what machinations my mind went through.
Susan, if any of us knew that, we might be on the say to understanding some of what, if anything, may lie behind your more obviously obsequious and confused expressions...

i felt capital one SOLD OUT to something or someone.  i don't want to be indebted to the eu and would rather starve.
No currency exists in a vacuum independently of any other but, at the same time, no currency is taking all others over either; if the latter were true, it might spell the end for currency speculators, so this just ain't gonna happen. Please do not starve, Susan; it is quite unnecessary...

i'd rather pay debts off slowly and efficiently and do without than give someone else my national right of sovereignty.
Do you perceive that you actually have this specific choice? If so, how did it come about (in less than 100,000 words, please)...

what did our ancestors die for?  FREEDOM not sell-out.  all i think of is the various sacrifices during world wars of people for the cause, president washington at valley forge, and the early pilgrims when america was born.  did you know - like wiht nostradamus - everything comes around in 50, 70, 100, and 500 year cycles.  with nostradamus - he talked about the 500.  as did clement I - with his idea of the phoenix bird that rises every 500 years.  well, if you are counting back to 1492 (close to 500 years ago) you are seeing the birth of a nation.  now we are witnessing the DEATH.  literally americans are mourning because each of their blessings is being taken away.  even the panama canal.
You really should give serious consideration to a substantial reduction in the dosage, you know; OK, don't make any drastic changes thereto other than under strict medical supervision, but do look seriously into this, won't you?...

which, btw - has decided to be widened!
Not to the same extent as what passes for your constantly burgeoning (not to say bludgeoning) imagination!

how good of an idea is that with terrorism.  well, we don't own it now - so can we control it?
"We"? Who? You mean the goodly citizens of America? I had thought that this thread was about religion, not Americans and the canals that they may or may not own...

no blessings on jimmy carter for that idea - although i liked some of his others.
Give me Elliott Carter any day!

and what about gibralter for britain.
It's Gibraltar, actually.

now it's not technically really owned by britain is it?  and it's massively tunnelled.  what for, do you wonder?  also, spain is building a highspeed rail link to and under gibralter.  i'm not saying people don't need it to work - all i'm saying is that we are increasingly less and less border secure.
If only that really were "all that you are saying"! Spain is doing no such thing. Britain does not "own" Gibraltar (you're right there, for once), but then Gibraltar is just one of the places  in Europe that functons as a tax haven not only for the Brits but for other Europeans and non-Europeans - the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are just a few other such examples. New high-speed rail links are gradually being built all over Europe, the main one in Spain being at its other Mediterranean end, linking Perpignan in SW France with Figueres, Gerona and Barcelona in Spanish Catalunya. And so what? Eventually we may have high-speed rail links from Aberdeen to Abidjan, Dublin to Dushanbe, Ipswich to Isfahan and even Ullswater to Ulan Ude - but then, if dear Mr Leary of Ryanair has his way (which is far from unlikely), we will all have cheaper-than-chips air links from just about every village to every other village well before even those things establish themselves. None of that has any more significance for the euro as such, beyond the fairly obvious fact that its power may increase, but then, if that does happen, so will that of the pound and dollar, because the easier it is for more and more people to travel from one country to another, the greater will be the extent of currency speculation and the handsome financial profits derivable therefrom...

supposedly this world order existed in the minds of a few elite for generations and is merely coming about as the logical order.  even beethoven's ode to joy is now used as european anthem?  how old is that - and what was that originally composed for.  napoleon UNTIL HE CROWNED HIMSELF EMPEROR.  then, beethoven was thoroughly disgusted in him and scribbled off his name from the dedication.  for good reason.  beethoven was for freedom.  not for tyranny.  this ode to joy for europe should be a sponge bob episode.
It is clear that you are confusing Beethoven's third symphony with his ninth; it is the former that was originally dedicated to Napoléon Bonaparte before the composer withdrew that dedication, whereas the Ode to Joy is a setting of a text by Schiller that appears in Beethoven's ninth symphony which has nothing whatsoever to do with Napoléon Bonaparte. Quite what a "sponge bob episode" may or may not be I have less than no idea, but then I take leave to doubt that Beethoven himself would have been any the wiser on this...

I cannot help but be mildly amused by the way in which you divert a thread about religion away from religious matters; I wish that I could also be relieved by it, even if only momentarily, but the confused, vacillatory and occasionally absurd notions that you put forward in place of your usual religious rantings offer no such benefit, at least to me, I am sorry to have to say...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #208 on: September 11, 2007, 11:29:09 PM
i don't think you need percodan, alistair.  you seem quite able to weather any storm without so much as a hair mussing.  i really don't know how you do it.  perhaps you grew up with the sound of rainstorms in the background?  anyways - you seem quite able to 'opt out' when you want.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #209 on: September 11, 2007, 11:34:37 PM
i don't think you need percodan, alistair.
Not right now, thanks (and they wouldn't call it that in UK in any ase)...

you seem quite able to weather any storm without so much as a hair mussing.  i really don't know how you do it.
I've noticed no storm here as such...

perhaps you grew up with the sound of rainstorms in the background?  anyways - you seem quite able to 'opt out' when you want.
Er - not especially - and I'm not "opting out" or seeking to"opt out"of anything here in any case, as I would have hoped you'd already long since have noticed...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #210 on: September 12, 2007, 01:02:55 AM
i will play the left-handed scriabin just for you.  (*have to find it first on the internet)

Offline cmg

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Re: Religion
Reply #211 on: September 12, 2007, 01:39:09 AM
i don't think you need percodan, alistair.  you seem quite able to weather any storm without so much as a hair mussing. 

I agree, dear pianistimo.  Alistair doesn't need percodan. 

He is "quite able to weather any storm without so much as a hair mussing" because he uses hurricane-hold hairspray.  It was invented by the Scots as a act of mercy for residents of storm-tossed climes.
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #212 on: September 12, 2007, 07:20:35 AM
I agree, dear pianistimo.  Alistair doesn't need percodan. 

He is "quite able to weather any storm without so much as a hair mussing" because he uses hurricane-hold hairspray.  It was invented by the Scots as a act of mercy for residents of storm-tossed climes.
Whilst naturally denying the truth of the second statement here, I admit that it is nevertheless abit more peasant to contemplate than the though that you might not consider me to have sufficient stuff on the top of my head to warrant the use of such a spray...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #213 on: September 12, 2007, 01:19:23 PM
i was not implying that as a reason for no hair mussing - although hurricane hold hairspray could be no less than superglue in spray form if you lived in the southwest here.  i fear for mark-andre hamelin more than you alistair, in this matter.  although, nowdays men can have hair transplants. 

cmg - what causes people to lose their hair?  stress?  hormones? age? genetics?  too much hair dye?  combinations of these things?  and what do you tell people who come in for counseling after having lost a swath?  typically -don't you think women would be more upset?  i still have my hair, btw, and it's still long - but i have to comb and brush it carefully.  i don't typically wash my hair twice a day anymore.  it's a sort of mathematical formula i have worked out in my head as to how many times to wash my hair per week/month.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #214 on: September 12, 2007, 01:21:39 PM
i fear for mark-andre hamelin more than you alistair in this matter.  although, nowdays men can have hair transplants.  i'm not sure if it is more or less painful than waxing. 

Perhaps we should give Monsieur Hamelin both?

Offline cmg

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Re: Religion
Reply #215 on: September 12, 2007, 01:26:26 PM
Perhaps we should give Monsieur Hamelin both?

 ;D  Great idea!  The body hair removed by wax removal can simply be affixed to his scalp! 

Say, pianistimo, that could be the new business venture you're looking for.  We could call it "Pianistimo's Waxing and Scalping Emporium."

What do you think, dear lady?

p.s. but we digress from the thread topic.  To correct that, I pose this question:  Is there evidence of hairspray use in the Old or New Testaments?
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #216 on: September 12, 2007, 03:23:10 PM
you are most creative, cmg.  btw, i shouldn't have said anything about mark-andre hamelin's hair because i think he's cute.  he wouldn't be the first or last pianist to have a little thinning. 

regarding super-glue and hairspray - i think i can safely connect this thought with the original biblical text and text that has been deleted and/or added.  here's a site that one can ponder regarding the addition of the ideas of the 'trinity' although not word 'trinity' - in some bibles (such as NIV - and other places).  also, the true word of God says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father (otherwise Jesus Christ wouldn't have had to ascend to grant it to men on earth - he'd have just dalloped them with it).

https://www.tulipgems.com/WhichBible2.htm

i suppose my point is that many people are 'tired' of religion because it seems there are many 'contradictions.'  but, who put them in the bible in the first place.  of course, the miracles spoken of in the bible are also sometimes stumbling blocks - but, Christ's own ressurrection (which he spoke of ahead of time with his diciples - that it would be a stumbling block) is said to mirror jonah's three days and nights in the belly of the whale.  if jonah's story is untrue - then Jesus's would be also.  so - i think that proves that Jesus Christ meant for the bible to be taken literally.

did you know that when the world trade center collapsed - there was a man that survived at ground zero?!  how could he have survived without it being a miracle.  also, there were about four people that decided instead of going up the stairwell to get a helicopter - they would go down many mnay flights of stairs - and they did this and MADE IT OUT!  how could the building have not collapsed before they made it?  prayer?!  i think so!.

also - a chinese christian group that met (that worked in several areas of the world trade center) had gone for dinner together the night before and got sick from the food.  NONE of them showed up for work the next day on 9/11!  if you don't believe in miracles - you have to read more.  they are all around us.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #217 on: September 12, 2007, 04:51:08 PM
did you know that when the world trade center collapsed - there was a man that survived at ground zero?!  how could he have survived without it being a miracle.  also, there were about four people that decided instead of going up the stairwell to get a helicopter - they would go down many mnay flights of stairs - and they did this and MADE IT OUT!  how could the building have not collapsed before they made it?  prayer?!  i think so!.
I don't.

also - a chinese christian group that met (that worked in several areas of the world trade center) had gone for dinner together the night before and got sick from the food.  NONE of them showed up for work the next day on 9/11!  if you don't believe in miracles - you have to read more.  they are all around us.
It is well known that there were quite a few fortunate escapes from the towers; what I find even more remarkable is that the total number of people supposedly in them at the time of the incidents was considerably less than customary expectations for the time of day. "Miracles" in the sense in which you mean it? No. Immense good fortune? Undoubtedly. We can still describe such good fortune as "miraculous", of course - and indeed many of us do - but this is possible and plausible largely because the word "miracle" and its derivatives have long since become divorced from strictly Biblical context.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #218 on: September 12, 2007, 05:32:29 PM
alistair, in life threatening situations people often convert.  on their own accord.  in fact, one of the ladies that explained how she found the stairwell and got out was by some unknown person grabbing her shirt and showing her the way.  then, he suddenly disappeared.  for christians - we just say 'ok.  another angel.'  i'm perfectly content to believe that they exist for the good and protection of us at times and not to understand everything about them.  now, whether this was an angel or a person - how do i know? i don't - but in any case - God can send angels if there are no people to do the job.  and the people will always be angels to the person they rescued.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Religion
Reply #219 on: September 12, 2007, 05:52:43 PM
alistair, in life threatening situations people often convert.  on their own accord.  in fact, one of the ladies that explained how she found the stairwell and got out was by some unknown person grabbing her shirt and showing her the way.  then, he suddenly disappeared.  for christians - we just say 'ok.  another angel.'  i'm perfectly content to believe that they exist for the good and protection of us at times and not to understand everything about them.  now, whether this was an angel or a person - how do i know? i don't - but in any case - God can send angels if there are no people to do the job.  and the people will always be angels to the person they rescued.
I'm not arguing with you here - except that I find the idea of people "converting" (by which I cannot help but take you to mean to your particular kind of Christianity, othewise you probably wouldn't have mentioned this here) in such situations profoundly suspect and unpleasant; put someone into a situation of great vulnerability and see if they "convert". Hmmm. Please God, no...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline wotgoplunk

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Re: Religion
Reply #220 on: September 12, 2007, 09:23:42 PM
Just a word of advice for Christian missionaries", and all other monotheists...you catch more" flies with honey than with vinegar.

All this Biblical stuff, "I was lost until I found Jesus", "Jesus cured my dying grandmother", Pacscal's Wager, etc. ,etc.: is only ever going to infuriate people. It will strengthen their (non)belief.
Cogito eggo sum. I think, therefore I am a waffle.

Offline wotgoplunk

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Re: Religion
Reply #221 on: September 12, 2007, 09:26:27 PM
don't - but in any case - God can send angels if there are no people to do the job.  and the people will always be angels to the person they rescued.

He certainly didn't send an angel stop a devout Catholic from attempting suicide...it took luck and an Atheist to stop that.
Cogito eggo sum. I think, therefore I am a waffle.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #222 on: September 12, 2007, 10:59:14 PM
Satan tempted Jesus himself to jump off a high mountain (basically committing suicide) to prove that angels would catch him.  He said something like - 'don't test God.'  and yet - when people are in despair - they don't have the resolve that Jesus did from being as close to the Father.  often times there is something lacking in their life or their family or close relationship.  people are never as faithful in friendship and love as God - and that is why the bible says not to put your trust in man.  or even a church.  just to put in squarely into God's hands. 

i am happiest when i am not attempting to force my life in a certain direction (especially if it happens not to want to go in that direction).  sometimes people get depressed over finances - life situations -whatever - because they can't change it.  but, they don't realize that part of the change is being willing to accept change and not be afraid of it and try to keep everything the same forever.  there is a certain element of trust and faith in God that is required.

whether you were the hopeless or the hopeful - everyone is on both sides sometime in their life.  deep depression or boundless hope and joyfulness.  that's why we are all here - to help each other when things are bad and be happy when they go well.  i don't think that people are stuck like flies in traps of honey or vinegar - but rather are unblinded from societal mandates (or supposed mandates) for happiness.  what if being content is really a state of mind.  that you don't have to do or be or have anything to be truly happy - excepting the peace of the Holy Spirit.

who do you know that has peace of mind and truly doesn't worry?  pretty much only those who have a 'big brother' looking out for them.  Jesus Christ is that figurative 'big brother' excepting He doesn't need to spy and accuse - rather he throws our sins as far as east is from west and gives us hope because whatever we can't do - He can!

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #223 on: September 13, 2007, 12:50:55 AM
Satan tempted Jesus himself to jump off a high mountain (basically committing suicide) to prove that angels would catch him.  He said something like - 'don't test God.' 

Yes, a spectacular interest of Satan doing what he does best - dividing.  He takes out of context a passage in Deuteronomy, which promises the protection of the angels of the Lord, but Christ Jesus rebukes him with another passage (from the same book) which the biblical scholar Satan has neglected: "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."  Not only does he speak (principally) against the abuse of the good (protection) which emanates from the One Who Is, but he demonstrates what is possibly when God's Word is not examined as a whole.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #224 on: September 13, 2007, 12:53:09 AM
He certainly didn't send an angel stop a devout Catholic from attempting suicide...it took luck and an Atheist to stop that.

...and it is certainly beyond God's power to use an Atheist to protect His own.

Offline wotgoplunk

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Re: Religion
Reply #225 on: September 13, 2007, 01:29:59 AM
...and it is certainly beyond God's power to use an Atheist to protect His own.

But why on earth use an Atheist? Being all knowing he would have known it would turn the Atheist into an even greater Atheist. And make the devout Catholic begin questioning her faith.

When he could've just done it himself.
Cogito eggo sum. I think, therefore I am a waffle.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #226 on: September 13, 2007, 01:32:41 AM
When he could've just done it himself.

Yes, but why would He use supernatural means when He can use natural means?

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #227 on: September 13, 2007, 01:34:43 AM
But why on earth use an Atheist?

Why not?  A priest can be in mortal sin, but the Sacrament of Reconciliation is still valid.  Why should God's power in healing a believer be inhibited by the lack of faith in his instrument of healing?

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Religion
Reply #228 on: September 13, 2007, 01:50:55 AM
Just a word of advice for Christian missionaries", and all other monotheists...you catch more" flies with honey than with vinegar.

All this Biblical stuff, "I was lost until I found Jesus", "Jesus cured my dying grandmother", Pacscal's Wager, etc. ,etc.: is only ever going to infuriate people. It will strengthen their (non)belief.

So true!  As Tolstoy wrote,

"However one takes [Jesus' miracles], under any circumstance, they bring to the teaching of Jesus neither contradiction nor confirmation of its truth.  Their sole significance for Christianity was that they proved the divinity of Jesus Christ for him who was not persuaded of this divinity beforehand.  But they are useless to one whom stories of miracles are powerless to convince, and who, besides, doubts the divinity of Jesus as evidenced in His teaching."

Walter Ramsey



Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #229 on: September 13, 2007, 01:53:57 AM
you might get mad at me michael (and i don't doubt Christ can use many ways to help people) - but where in the bible does God not rescue his own - with his own.  prophets, angels, disciples, etc. 

there is another side to all this.  that perhaps the spirit world is full of 'spirits' and that we should test them.  why receive help from someone who cannot explain death and cannot keep you from attempting suicide the following morning?  i'm not saying that keeping someone from it via 911 or any other method isn't valid - but does it solve a long term problem that possibly is hopelessness?

if the church did not solve it for this woman - did the athiest give her a good reason for living.  typically athiests are observant of the physical world around and some are quite amazing scientists - but they still cannot explain why the big bang doesn't happen over and over again (the one that created the entire universe - on that scale).  perhaps they are wary of giving the ownership of creation to God and prefer to give it to Satan vicariously.

athiests teach not to hope for happiness beyond the grave.  that materialism is all there is.  wouldn't this be the opposite of what the catholic was looking for?  typically, doesn't catholic theology search for that thing called 'heaven.'  unless this person was taught a doctrine that suicide victims go to hell.  i don't believe it, btw - but i have no idea of what is taught in various denominations about suicide.  all i know is that when a person is hung on a tree - they are 'anathama.'  but, whatever that means seems speculative with out having committed a crime excepting against themselves.  typically criminals were hung.

one must be careful where they get their help.

in regards to miracles - the only one JEsus Christ said that we all have witness to by the scripture is that his body was never found.  i suppose we should wish that away?  now some say that the ossuaries of jesus and mary magdalene and others were found - but what they neglect to say is that Jesus wasn't even buried with his family.  the 'joses' was JAMES.  that is my humble opinion.  Jesus, as mentioned in the bible - was ressurrected after three days and nights in the tomb that was hewn from stone and that had the huge rock in front of it.  how anyone could 'escape' from that situation (without suffocating either - had they survived crucifixion - as the door was sealed) would be a miracle.  we know the miracle was the ressurrection.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #230 on: September 13, 2007, 02:01:13 AM
you might get mad at me michael

Why should I be mad at you for your reasonable opinion?

and i don't doubt Christ can use many ways to help people

Indeed.

but where in the bible does God not rescue his own - with his own.  prophets, angels, disciples, etc. 

What is an angel but one sent by God  (admittedly, I expand our typical notion of an angel, which is certainly, by the most common definition, a being who is pure spirit)?  Could perhaps the atheist, unknowing, be sent by God to the devout believer, who through Christ's infinite merits, merits the protection of the Lord?  Perhaps the atheist desires Good, though he does not know by what name it (He) goes, and this is sufficient for the Lord God Almighty.

To "quote" Elwood Blues: "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #231 on: September 13, 2007, 02:12:32 AM
i am indeed curious as to what the athiest said and how long the effect lasted.

about the angels.  pure spirit and pure IN spirit are two different things.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #232 on: September 13, 2007, 02:20:32 AM
about the angels.  pure spirit and pure IN spirit are two different things.

Agreed - I only gave the pure spirit definition because this is our typical definition of an angel.  I give the alternate, more etymological definition, to suppose the possibility of God's use of an atheist.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #233 on: September 13, 2007, 02:21:42 AM
i am indeed curious as to what the athiest said and how long the effect lasted.

Long enough for God's child to live...one prays.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #234 on: September 13, 2007, 02:23:45 AM
don't demons typically want people to die?  did he say - 'go ahead.  then you'll find out what you've been believing all along has been crap.'  or did he say 'don't do it.  you'll probably win the lottery tommorrow.'

now, there's no judgement here - merely speculation.  we truly don't know the entire story.  all i'm saying is that what REAL hope can an atheist give on the long term.  i'd say a few minutes to a really suicidal person.  the moment the athiest leaves - what will she do? 

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #235 on: September 13, 2007, 02:25:45 AM
don't demons typically want people to die?  did he say - 'go ahead.  then you'll find out what you've been believing all along has been crap.'  or did he say 'don't do it.  you'll probably win the lottery tommorrow.'

The atheist is a demon now?  Or are you saying that the atheist is possessed by a demon?

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #236 on: September 13, 2007, 02:27:16 AM
according to your previous message - i was following what i thought was a train of thought.  that angels ARE spirits and are 'pure spirit' - but not all are 'pure in spirit.'  therefore - the demons are pretty much confined to those people that do not speak in the name of Jesus Christ.  they are spoken of in the bible as 'held captive' without knowing.

i can't really pontificate in this situation (as you aren't either) - i'm just guessing at what possibly occurred.  the bible says 'we know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.' 

now - i met a person who had the spirit of another (not Jesus's) and he actually went to my bible and changed that verse to say 'we know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the three.'

https://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/corrupt.htm

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #237 on: September 13, 2007, 02:41:02 AM
according to your previous message - i was following what i thought was a train of thought.  that angels ARE spirits and are 'pure spirit' - but not all are 'pure in spirit.'

Sorry - my post was a bit ambiguous.  Let me begin again:  I agree with you.  Angels are pure spirit - but I believe that they must be pure in spirit as well if they dwell with God.  For what can be in the company of the Almighty that is impure?

In any case, we speculate, whether God has used the atheist to bring the believer back to Himself, or God has allowed Satan to possess the atheist with a demon in order to change the intention of the believer for some darker purpose.  I do not know - but my inclination is that God, through His grace, has used the atheist, in spite of this unbeliever's intentions, to bring the faithful Christian back to Him.

I apologize for the verbosity - I hope that is a bit clearer.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #238 on: September 13, 2007, 02:43:35 AM
Incidentally, I think Thal has gotten what he wanted - we have staked out some territory of our own on the Piano Forum.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #239 on: September 13, 2007, 02:57:14 AM
yes!  i am thinking he must be on the isles of scilly by now.

Offline wotgoplunk

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Re: Religion
Reply #240 on: September 13, 2007, 03:16:07 AM
Yes, but why would He use supernatural means when He can use natural means?

To stop someone from strengthening their disbelief? Sounds reasonable to me. All he had to do was send a tiny thought. Since he's God, that can't be that much trouble than to make someone coincidentally stumble upon someone outside.
Cogito eggo sum. I think, therefore I am a waffle.

Offline wotgoplunk

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Re: Religion
Reply #241 on: September 13, 2007, 03:30:36 AM
if the church did not solve it for this woman - did the athiest give her a good reason for living.

No, the Atheism ran over and knocked the bottle of pills out her hand.

Quote
but they still cannot explain why the big bang doesn't happen over and over again (the one that created the entire universe - on that scale)

Actually, we can :)

I wrote a big long reply and accidentally hit the back button and it got deleted, so I will sum it up simply:

There is a value used in calculating the velocity of the Universe. It is called Hubble's constant. If this constant is greater than one, the Universe expands to its maximum point, approx. 2 or 3 billion years from now, after which it begins contracting into a giant singularity, called the Big Crunch. This singularity allows for another Big Bang causing a never-ending cycle of 30 billion years or so.

If the constant is between zero and one, we get a Universe that expands, but the velocity approaches equilibrium. However we will never exactly reach equilibrium because of quantum fluctuations, just like how a pendulum never points straight down.

If the constant is exactly zero, we get a uniformly expanding Universe. If it's negative, which is regarded as unlikely, we get an accelerating Universe. All currently agree with redshift that has been found between galaxies.

And here's a neat little graphic for you:



Cogito eggo sum. I think, therefore I am a waffle.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #242 on: September 13, 2007, 03:31:24 AM
perhaps we are each arguing with ourselves?  as i see it - the good samaritan couldn't have been praised by God in the bible if He was possessed.  so obviously, some people who do good deeds and are yet not seemingly 'converted' - can certainly outdo others in christian deed. 

perhaps i will end the evening tonight - giving michael the credit due as to God perhaps using natural means for a supernatural purpose.  and, in his favor - granting the newly born catholic to rethink exactly what caused her depression.  perhaps it was not the athiest who was possessed - but the catholic.  she needed to reevaluate her life and what pushed her over the edge.

all in a days work, friends.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #243 on: September 13, 2007, 03:35:45 AM
if the universe is expanding -why are the constellations exactly as they were thousands of years ago.  i mean - you could literally space the stars - and see that they haven't changed.  also, no orbits have been affected have they?

if the universe is expanding at such a great rate - our tides should be majorly affected.

the bible says that God set boundaries for everything.  science wants to prove it otherwise.  who is being truthful.  time will tell.  although nobody wants to wait for a big crunch when Jesus is returning in a few years and can tell you how it is Himself.

Offline wotgoplunk

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Re: Religion
Reply #244 on: September 13, 2007, 03:42:42 AM
if the universe is expanding -why are the constellations exactly as they were thousands of years ago.  i mean - you could literally space the stars - and see that they haven't changed.  also, no orbits have been affected have they?

if the universe is expanding at such a great rate - our tides should be majorly affected.

the bible says that God set boundaries for everything.  science wants to prove it otherwise.  who is being truthful.  time will tell.  although nobody wants to wait for a big crunch when Jesus is returning in a few years and can tell you how it is Himself.

You do know that the closest star is 41.5 trillion km away? So think how long it takes light to reach us. Even the sun we see as it was 8 million years ago.

You are forgetting we are nought but a speck in the Universe. Are quarks affected when molecules move apart? The quarks simply move with them. We are too small to be radically affected.

NB: The Bible has no effect on science. Please leave it out of scientific discussions :)
Cogito eggo sum. I think, therefore I am a waffle.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #245 on: September 13, 2007, 03:44:59 AM
no.  because prophecy is already coming true.  for the last few months 1/3 of the stars have not been shining.  do scientists talk about what they observe?  not always.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Religion
Reply #246 on: September 13, 2007, 03:45:07 AM
when Jesus is returning in a few years and can tell you how it is Himself.

How few?

Offline wotgoplunk

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Re: Religion
Reply #247 on: September 13, 2007, 03:47:01 AM
no.  because prophecy is already coming true.  for the last few months 1/3 of the stars have not been shining.  do scientists talk about what they observe?  not always.

You're going to have to cite your source on that. If there is no citation, I'm not going to take it seriously.

Unless you can come up with a valid refutation for Hubble's constant, you have no argument against an expanding universe.

Cogito eggo sum. I think, therefore I am a waffle.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #248 on: September 13, 2007, 03:50:54 AM
no man knows the day or the hour - but we do know the signs will be those of Christ's in the book of matthew.  wars and rumors of wars, famine, pestilence (bad weather, etc etc).  many people were recently devastated in the mid-west by 100 year cycle flooding.  some see all this as merely disasters that repeat in every generation.  but, the bible says to 'watch and pray that you may escape all these things....' what things?  the devastation that will come on the earth for not obeying Him in all things.  that's why prophets are sent.  to warn people.  but, usually they laugh.  nobody will laugh at st. john's revelations when it's all done with.  we may not know the hour - but we know that between revelations and daniel - we have an idea of what will happen during 3 1/2 years of beast and false prophet power.  we have a world government which will promise peace and actually end up drawing all nations to armageddon around the middle east.  every nation will be represented there by their army.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Religion
Reply #249 on: September 13, 2007, 03:51:58 AM
wotogoplunk, do you ever look up at the sky?  i have.  i don't need a scientist to tell me what i see.
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