Religion

[ahinton]

I see.

100 quid on Soliloquy 

You can send that to me if you like, on soliloquy's behalf, since he seems to owe me for a bet that he himself made a little while ago; the original deal was that he would simply pay up, but he soon changed that to wanting to have a copy of the score of Sorabji's Piano Symphony No. 1: Tantrik in return, with which I am agreeable. I've not heard from him in a while since I provided to him all the evidence that is available about a question that he posed in another thread, but you don't need to bother yourself about the details of that (unless you happen to be interested). You'll need to clear this with soliloquy first, as a matter of courtesy, of course but, since you're talking "quid" here, I'm assuming (hopefully with good reason) that this is your currency and that you are UK based, so this way will save soliloquy the bank charges that he would otherwise incur were he to make the payment from US himself...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

just to set the record straight, this thread started as a rant on religion.  to put religion on another board.  i have never started a rant about homosexuality or gays - to put everything spoken about it on another board.  if i do not want to read or think about it - i do not go on threads that talk about it.  and, don't contribute.  why should i care?  it doesn't directly affect me or what i think about.  if someone asks my opinion - then i say that i think freedom in america means the right to be whatever you are - AND the right to believe what you believe.  now, if i speak about the bible - then i have as much right as anyone else to speak about whatever they want to.  it's not forcing anyone to do anything.  and, it is definately not hate crime.

do you know that free speech is exactly that.  the right to disagree with someone.  would you prefer that i agree with everything you say?  that is what you are telling me.  unless i agree with your pronouncements  - that i am not 'state mandated policy.'  bunk.  i say - the usa started with law and that law was based on the bible.  the bible is the only law that gives humans equal rights.  and, guess who started that idea?  Jesus Christ - when he said that 'whomever is the least guilty should judge another.'  that was in regards to adultery - but basically shows that any 'crime' that is punishable by death (or used to be) should be meted out by someone who is perfect.  nobody is perfect.  so what does that say?  maybe that we need a righteous judge.  that is Jesus Christ.  arbiter and judge for us - who are sinners.  and guess what?!  he doesn't judge strictly by the law - but by the heart.  only He knows our hearts.  in fact, he said that it is more likely there will be more sinners in the kingdom than pharisees (or those who judge others).  so what does that say?  that He IS righteous.  He judges in a different way.

our courts go strictly by the book.  there is no clause that says 'you have a way out.'  someone paid the penalty already for you.  His name is Jesus Christ.  so - if HE has done so much for us...it seems a very small thing to be thankful and change whatever is sinful about our behavior to match his kindness.

of course, that is simply a matter of biblical perspective and i don't expect everyone to agree.  it's just my right to say what i think here in this thread that wants to put religion to the side and homosexuality up front.

[thalbergmad]

would you prefer that i agree with everything you say?  that is what you are telling me. 

That is not what i am telling you, i just hope that you can try and keep your posts a little shorter, a little more to the point and more importantly, UNDERSTANDABLE.

I admit that you don't start threads about religious topics, but you often infest others with your ridiculous pathetic rants and you seem to try to inject jesus into completely unrelated threads.

I hope that you try to be a little more balanced in the future and try to grasp some of the points that are made by people who don't run their lives on your absurd 2000 year old book, written by Goat Herders.

Your posts lean towards the demented, jump around from point to point and remind me of the Nuremberg Rallies.

I feel that it would be in your interest to put your Bible away for a year or so and try and get some form of basic education. This would put you in a better position for debating in certain threads.

With little bit more sense and flexibility, you might regain some form of credibility here.

Thal

[pianistimo]

credibility is when someone can prove something.  can you prove that homosexuality is a trait and not an act.  does anyone force anyone else to do an 'act?'  no.  therefore it is not a trait.  i wish people would reason.

i could say - i have a trait of sniffing perfume. i need protection under the law.  does anyone MAKE me sniff perfume.  no.  but , now - the only people i want to marry are those that sniff perfume, too.

i want to adopt children so i can manipulate them to think as i do and grow up sniffing perfume.

granted - some people are not born with large sexual organs.  that does not mean noone will consider them a sexual partner if they are male OR female.  all that means is that they are normal because the gamut of the human body spectrum is extremely large.  people have reasoned that because of hormone lack or increase- that some people SHOULD have been male or female.

BUT- think about it - we have the chromosomes to tell us what we are.  God is very specific and that is why his law is different than man's.  our law says 'do what you want.'  people can marry the same sex.  it doesn't mean they won't be judged by a different law in the ressurrection.

[wotgoplunk]

You made a rather large anti-homosexual rant, that I responded to, and you promptly ignored.

[pianistimo]

what you consider a rant - is merely saying that homosexuality is a sin according to the bible. 

if you are not a christian - does this comment matter?  no. 

SO IGNORE IT = you have a brain.

i have not gone to a LEADING UNIVERSITY and said 'in my country we don't have any homosexuals.'  ahmadinejad has. 

this is who 'intellectuals' want to hear?

you say 'homosexuality is a trait.'  well, prove it.  prove that there is a homosexual gene.

[wotgoplunk]

credibility is when someone can prove something.  can you prove that homosexuality is a trait and not an act.  does anyone force anyone else to do an 'act?'  no.  therefore it is not a trait.  i wish people would reason.

i could say - i have a trait of sniffing perfume. i need protection under the law.  does anyone MAKE me sniff perfume.  no.  but , now - the only people i want to marry are those that sniff perfume, too.

i want to adopt children so i can manipulate them to think as i do and grow up sniffing perfume.

granted - some people are not born with large sexual organs.  that does not mean noone will consider them a sexual partner if they are male OR female.  all that means is that they are normal because the gamut of the human body spectrum is extremely large.  people have reasoned that because of hormone lack or increase- that some people SHOULD have been male or female.

BUT- think about it - we have the chromosomes to tell us what we are. 

Homosexuality is different to sniffing perfume.

Even so, if you want to sniff perfume, go ahead.

Homosexuals are not being given protection, we're giving them equality.

And you want us to reason? You need to reason first. You have provided nothing for the Bible's divinity, nothing refuting evolution or the Big Bang.

Until you do that, stop spouting your nonsense, bigot.

[pianistimo]

you have not told me why homosexuality is a trait, either.  until you prove what you say - i have no reason to say anything different that what i believe, also.  which is based upon the notion that ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED EQUAL. 

do you think the UN has this notion?  did you know that the pope in 2005 made a speech to UN castigating them for the ideas they had (which were similar to hitlers) in allowing the weak be 'mercy killed.'  that was the start of hitler's ideas.  to not have to pay for those which supposedly drain the funds.

now, if you are so worried about the rights of homosexuals - shouldn't you also be concerned for the rights of women under the UN?  the right to not be forced to have an abortion?

you see - laws are changing to be ANTI-GOD and anti-religion.  why?  because nobody has anyone to answer to , then.

[thalbergmad]

credibility is when someone can prove something. 

Credibility takes time to build and can be done by reason, flexibility in thinking and learning.

You have none.

Thal

[wotgoplunk]

what you consider a rant - is merely saying that homosexuality is a sin according to the bible. 

if you are not a christian - does this comment matter?  no. 

SO IGNORE IT = you have a brain.

i have not gone to a LEADING UNIVERSITY and said 'in my country we don't have any homosexuals.'  ahmadinejad has. 

this is who 'intellectuals' want to hear?

No, you ranted. You consider it perverted.

It does matter because you're blinded by a silly book and can't see that you're not tolerating 10% of the population !

I don't care about him. It's religious fundamentalists here in North America who have issues. Islamic extremism is a tiny percentage of religious fundamentalism.


Now answer my questions, do you wear cotton-blend, gold jewellery, or eat shellfish?

[wotgoplunk]

you have not told me why homosexuality is a trait, either.  until you prove what you say - i have no reason to say anything different that what i believe, also.  which is based upon the notion that ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED EQUAL. 

do you think the UN has this notion?

Why? Because people are born that way! Ask a gay. No one in their right minds would ever subject themselves to the social stigma of homosexuality.

No, you don't think that. You think homosexuals are below you, and doomed to hell.

The UN uses SECULAR Humanist principles.

[pianistimo]

secular humanist principles leave out God.  God is omnipotent.  that means -above all human reason.  human reason can be faulty.  so am i stupid.  let it be.  someday - when we are dead and ressurrected, you will see that homosexuality is an act and that it is not something that people HAVE TO CHOOSE.

i never said that anyone was better than anyone.  i said 'we all sin.'

btw, secular humanist principles also believe we are 'evolving' for the better.  if that is so - why kill the weak?  they are still evolving.

[wotgoplunk]

Statement != Fact.

Still avoiding my questions, pianistibigot.


By believing in the Bible you assert yourself as above anyone of another religion.

[pianistimo]

ANYONE of another religion.  i never said that.  i have the right to speak just as you do.

prove that i have no rights because i believe in God.

wotogoplunk, what do you think will happen to all of us when we die?  if there is a judgement, wouldn't you be happy that i told you.  even if you didn't believe?

[mike_lang]

what you consider a rant - is merely saying that homosexuality is a sin according to the bible. 

if you are not a christian - does this comment matter?  no. 

In other words, the world (as well as rules and principles) which you hold to be true, even if true for you, is not true for him?  Do you propose that there are multiple simultaneous versions of what is, and that they depend entirely on what we believe is true?  Wouldn't it be nice...

you say 'homosexuality is a trait.'  well, prove it.  prove that there is a homosexual gene.

Prove that there's not (and not with Wikipedia and the like).  Although I don't condone it, as a Catholic Christian, I certainly am not so foolish to believe that homosexuality is a choice, like "Shall I buy Peters or Henle?"  In my humble opinion, this is not the path of least resistance, and one would not choose to go this way for any reason than that they are compelled to do so from the inside - from the psyche, from the heart, perhaps even something more fundamental such as genes.

Best,
ML

[pianistimo]

the judgement is said to be 'our own words.'  now, if it is our own words - what will they be judged against.  maybe God's own? 

so there is really no huge choices to make if you are christian.  and, as we see it - we are warning the world as noah did.  the bible says that the world at the end of the ages will be just like the days of noah.  everyone doing what is right IN THEIR OWN EYES.

now, i think (notice - this is my opinion) what we are seduced by starts out mentally.  if you are exposed to sexual action or thoughts by school sex-ed, tv or whatever methods as a child...  should you not be curious about it as you get older.  if noone stops others from manipulating you (whether it be in a church who's priests are not allowed to marry or a public place) should you not be surprised if you have homosexual or lesbian tendencies because of conditioning?

a widow - married for many years - may choose to be celibate afterwards.  a homosexual after many years can choose the same.  it is a choice, imo.

[mike_lang]

a widow - married for many years - may choose to be celibate afterwards.  a homosexual after many years can choose the same.  it is a choice, imo.

I agree - there is a choice in this respect.  I was under the impression that you were arguing that the sexual preference itself is a matter of conscious choice.  I apologize if this is not what you meant.

Best,
ML

[pianistimo]

forgive me if i judge you too quickly, too, ML.  and regarding others who ask from their perspectives - because my intent is really never to find out from anyone if they aRE gay because frankly, i don't care.  i do, however, care if they are unsaved in the ressurrection if i know them personally or even not personally.  that is why if a gay man or just curious man asks me what the bible says - then i say it. 

it might not be what they want to hear.  it's another perspective.

i think the apostle paul struggled with homosexuality.  he called in 'a thorn in my flesh.'  why would he call it a thorn if it wasn't keeping him from the kingdom of God?  he said that moving toward the kingdom of God was like running a race.  leaving behind anything that weights us down. 

[thalbergmad]

i think the apostle paul struggled with homosexuality.  he called in 'a thorn in my flesh.' 

That is not the correct translation, is should be " a prick in my flesh".

How about christian gays and gay preachers, will they go to heaven?

In England, we have a gay Bishop. What will happen to him on this non existent Day of Judgement that you appear to be longing for?

Thal

[pianistimo]

the thief on the cross repented and was forgiven.  that is why there are many places that intimate that if one has a chance to repent - then they are forgiven.  but, what about dying before repentance.  that is a dillemma and only solvable by God.  how can we know if we are in the book of life for sure?  to pray that we are!

the impossible is possible with God.  he said that many sinners would be in the kingdom of God, while those invited and were too busy to come would be left out.  that means, to me, that if you are truly seeking - you will find God.

[thalbergmad]

I will try again:

Will a gay christian vicar go to heaven?

Will a gay Christian Bishop who has served God all his life go to heaven?

No need for several paragraphs.

This is my 2nd attempt.

Thal

[wotgoplunk]

YOU HAVE YET TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. 

Do it.
 

[pianistimo]

only solveable by God.  i cannot judge the vicar.  and, as for how time began (was that the question?) - i believe it is exactly as the bible says.  if the big bang happened - it was because God said 'let there be light.'

[thalbergmad]

I will try again:

Will a gay christian vicar go to heaven?

Will a gay Christian Bishop who has served God all his life go to heaven?

This is my 3rd attempt.

Thal

[pianistimo]

try a million times.  i am not responsible for a vicar.  it is said that each of us will stand before the judgement seat of God.  vicar or no vicar.  i think it might be appropriate if he first explains that one.

how can one act as a substitute for a superior?  that is where the word 'vicarious' comes from.

at least the word bishop is actually in the bible.  where's the word pope?  people say papa -or father is an endearing term.  well, Jesus said 'call no man Father.'  i don't recall anything said about apostle or bishop.  so, on that count the bishop stands ok.

[prongated]

I will try again:

Will a gay christian vicar go to heaven?

Will a gay Christian Bishop who has served God all his life go to heaven?

...pianistimo, if we really are all sinners, then aren't those inherently the same questions as:

Will a Christian minister who committed adultery go to heaven?

Will a Christian minister who stole peppermint gum go to heaven?

...unless you're suggesting that some sins are greater than others?

[wotgoplunk]

YOU HAVE YET TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. 

Do it.
 

QFE

[pianistimo]

prongated, yes yes yes!  that's exactly what i mean.  i'm not sure stealing peppermint gum is such a huge misdemeanor - but it certainly wouldn't be nice if stolen from children.

what does qfe mean, wotogoplunk?  quite funny explaination?

[thalbergmad]

try a million times.  i am not responsible for a vicar.  it is said that each of us will stand before the judgement seat of God.  vicar or no vicar.  i think it might be appropriate if he first explains that one.

how can one act as a substitute for a superior?  that is where the word 'vicarious' comes from.

at least the word bishop is actually in the bible.  where's the word pope?  people say papa -or father is an endearing term.  well, Jesus said 'call no man Father.'  i don't recall anything said about apostle or bishop.  so, on that count the bishop stands ok.

Not interested in babble, i want answers. I am not saying you are responsible.

From your huge experience on the bible, please answer my questions.

Thal

[prongated]

prongated, yes yes yes!  that's exactly what i mean.  i'm not sure stealing peppermint gum is such a huge misdemeanor - but it certainly wouldn't be nice if stolen from children.

...you've probably outlined this somewhere else, but in a sentence and according to the Bible, how does someone escape this wrath of God and enter Heaven?

[mike_lang]

...you've probably outlined this somewhere else, but in a sentence and according to the Bible, how does someone escape this wrath of God and enter Heaven?

Be faithful to God's Word, love God and one another, and never despair.

Best,
ML

[ahinton]

Credibility takes time to build and can be done by reason, flexibility in thinking and learning.

You have none.

Thal

You don't know that for sure, Thal; she may have it but just isn't usually using it.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I can only judge by what i have seen.

All i have seen is Biblical infested narrow minded posting.

Thal

[wotgoplunk]

what does qfe mean, wotogoplunk?  quite funny explaination?

Quoted for emphasis.

[ahinton]

forgive me if i judge you too quickly, too, ML.  and regarding others who ask from their perspectives - because my intent is really never to find out from anyone if they aRE gay because frankly, i don't care.  i do, however, care if they are unsaved in the ressurrection if i know them personally or even not personally.  that is why if a gay man or just curious man asks me what the bible says - then i say it.

Susan, I am NOT asking you what the Bible says, for you'll go on and on telling us anyway, but when you say that you care if some people are "unsaved in the resurrenction" you are referring here to homosexual people, yet you'd surely say the same of me even though I'm not homosexual. This is making no sense at all. 

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Some light relief is required.

Thal

[pianistimo]

prongated, that's a good question.  for those that are seriously considering that option.  the kingdom of God.  interestingly, the very apostle who may have had homosexual tendencies at one time - was jailed for preaching the gospel after he had been converted.  in acts 16 - the story is told about them being stripped of their robes, beaten, and thrown into prison, and in vs. 24 'their feet fastened in stocks.'

now, how hopeless of a situation is that?  i think it's meant to show the situation we are all in when we are born.  how should we know that this world locks us into a system?  that we long to be free of it?  any government in the world is still going to hold you down in some way.  be it laws, taxation, military decisions, whatever. 

so, here paul was - locked into prison.  it sounds very hopeless.  'but about midnight, paul and silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them...   they could have said 'hmph.  we did the will of God and now look where it got us.'

so vs. 26 'suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison house were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's chains were unfastened. 

interestingly, paul was concerned for the jailmaster who was going to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped.  he said - do yourself no harm - we're all here.  this consideration and kindness for the very jailer who was keeping him was uncharacteristic of most prisoners.  paul kept the prisoners all there by having seen the power of God through prayer and believing that prayer works.

so the jailer asked the same question as you:  'what must i do to be saved?'  and they said (they being paul and silas and the believers) 'believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household...and he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.'

ps the last sentence is my one sentence response.  i just put it into context.

alistair, i think you'll talk your way out of any bad sentence from God.  i see it in you already.  the thing is - you'll have to admit you sinned at least once or twice in your lifetime.  i don't think he'll take - 'i've never sinned.'  all God wants to hear is that we accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior because we cannot save ourselves.  we are physical and born of matter. God is Spirit.  how can we turn ourselves into spirit.  that is preposterous.  we can, of our own selves, do nothing!  nothing spiritual.  we are slaves to the system we are in.  we were sold from the time we were born until we are born again.  free.  from above and not below.

[thalbergmad]

so vs. 26 'suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison house were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's chains were unfastened. 

That was very helpful of God getting those people out of prison.

Tis a shame that he was not around when your relative Hitler murdered 6 millions of his followers.

I can see only ranting in your last posts. No answers to previous questions.

Thal

[ahinton]

what you consider a rant - is merely saying that homosexuality is a sin according to the bible. 

if you are not a christian - does this comment matter?  no. 

SO IGNORE IT

Fair comment as far as it goes; it ignore, however, the millions of devout Christians (including but by no means limited to homosexual ones) that do not believe that homosexuality is a sin, Bible or no Bible.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Some light relief is required.

Thal says "let there be light"!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

alistair, i think you'll talk your way out of any bad sentence from God.  i see it in you already.  the thing is - you'll have to admit you sinned at least once or twice in your lifetime.  i don't think he'll take - 'i've never sinned.'

If God were ever to want to waste His valuable time in discussion with me (which I very much doubt) he would not hear any claim from me that I have not sinned; when did I ever suggest as much? So it would appear that you see nothing here other than what is in your imagination.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

light relief is telling me that i'm a relative of hitler when i follow the bible and not the occult?  and i care deeply for israel?

i think the issue of interpretation is 'does one read the entire bible, or just what they want to read?'  the Holy Spirit brings fruits of love, joy, and peace.  if i were following hitler i would be attempting to murder people i don't like after trashing their humanity.  some think that is what the judgement is about.  i'm not God.  everyone has sinned. how does that make God a dictator.  especially if Jesus Christ paid the penalty of death FOR US.  that makes him merciful and much more benevolent than people give Him credit for.  why don't they consider that the only ones going to a 'second death,' as it says in revelations (not hell, btw) - are those like hitler who think they did God a service by killing innocent people.  only those who will not repent die again.  i think, however, that God is capable of releasing them from the spirit of Satan and showing others that another outcome could be had when people are free from the thoughts and mind of Satan.  he is, after all, the great deceiver.  if people are decieved - then it is by some form of deception.  even Jesus was 'tempted' by Him.  if that is possible - then we should be more easily tempted unless we read the word of God and compare daily.  Jesus Christ resisted Satan by quoting the Word of God.

[prongated]

prongated, that's a good question.  for those that are seriously considering that option.

...I'm not. I just wish you'd be more consistent regarding this in respect to;

Will a gay christian vicar go to heaven?

Will a gay Christian Bishop who has served God all his life go to heaven?

Obviously in your one-sentenced paradigm, what we do here don't affect salvation status, yet you are implying all these things regarding sins of homosexuality and whatnot being rather great! What is this "sin" anyway? Think about it.

...btw pianistimo, my past and present questions here were/are actually rhetorical...I shall stop feeding them in now, w.r.t.;

All i have seen is Biblical infested narrow minded posting.

[pianistimo]

i WAS consistent, prometheus.  i said - yes - all sin.  so what is inconsistent?  is one sin greater than another?  typically no.  but dictators are rulers of entire nations.  i do think they will be judged harsher and have to explain more.  however, God is capable of great mercy.

if one does not believe in God - how is this offensive.  i don't find you offensive.  simply that you have another point of view.  freedom of speech doesn't have to be confrontive to the degree that a person's humanity is at stake for what they say.  epecially if past history proves that some 'truths' are in error.  namely, that there are ANY superior races.  we all came from adam and eve according to the bible and mtdna.

[ahinton]

light relief is telling me that i'm a relative of hitler when i follow the bible and not the occult?  and i care deeply for israel?

i think the issue of interpretation is 'does one read the entire bible, or just what they want to read?'  the Holy Spirit brings fruits of love, joy, and peace.  if i were following hitler i would be attempting to murder people i don't like after trashing their humanity.  some think that is what the judgement is about.  i'm not God.  everyone has sinned. how does that make God a dictator.  especially if Jesus Christ paid the penalty of death FOR US.  that makes him merciful and much more benevolent than people give Him credit for.  why don't they consider that the only ones going to a 'second death,' as it says in revelations (not hell, btw) - are those like hitler who think they did God a service by killing innocent people.  only those who will not repent die again.  i think, however, that God is capable of releasing them from the spirit of Satan and showing others that another outcome could be had when people are free from the thoughts and mind of Satan.  he is, after all, the great deceiver.  if people are decieved - then it is by some form of deception.  even Jesus was 'tempted' by Him.  if that is possible - then we should be more easily tempted unless we read the word of God and compare daily.  Jesus Christ resisted Satan by quoting the Word of God.

That's a response to mine above, is it?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

only the first sentence.

[thalbergmad]

God is capable of great mercy.

Shame he rarely shows it then.

Where was he when millions of people were being gassed to death?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Obviously in your one-sentenced paradigm, what we do here don't affect salvation status

I am trying to find out from her.

To me, a man who has given his life to God should go to heaven whether he is gay or not. I want to find out what the Bible says about this and what pianistimo (who is not short of opinions) thinks.

I cannot extract an answer.

Thal

[ahinton]

only the first sentence.

Nonsense! That sentence has nothing to do with my post #590 which please read again and respond. Thanks!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You never get answers, only more dementia.

Thal