Religion

[thracozaag]

There is no place where Koran says that.

Sura IV, Chapter 89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then  seize them and kill them wherever you find them,  and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[ramseytheii]

Sura IV, Chapter 89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then  seize them and kill them wherever you find them,  and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Thank you!

Walter Ramsey

[m]

Sura IV, Chapter 89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then  seize them and kill them wherever you find them,  and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

By no means I am a Koran specialist, but if I understand correctly, it is matter of context and interpretation. If I am not mistaken, this particular passage talks about those who betrayed the belief, i.e. "Kill him who changes his religion".

On the other hand, Bible is not that innocent either, as opposed to what our dear Susan is trying to present (or maybe she just did not get that far, or even worse, pretend that there is nothing like that in the Bible  ).

Judge for yourself:

Deuteronomy 17:2-7 Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own.

Deuteronomy 17:12-13 Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. 

Exodus 22:20 You must kill those who worship another god.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. 

Deuteronomy 13:12-16 Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you.

Leviticus 20:13  Put to death homosexuals.

Leviticus 24:14-23    Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire community.

Numbers 15:32-36    Violate the Sabbath and the penalty is death by stoning.

Deut 13:6-10  If your wife or brother or anyone entices you toward a new religion you must kill him/her without fail..

Or how about that:

Duet 22:23-24  Kill rape victims if they fail to cry out loud enough. (!!!)

and much more:

https://members.aol.com/nogodperiod/bible_says.htm

[thalbergmad]

Well, if one accepts that the Bible was written by bronze age barbarians, the above is understanderable.

Thal

[mephisto]

I am not a muslim, but certainly if one thrusts the Qu'ran and is a good muslim one should have nothing against christians or jews.

Sura II, Chapter 62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Muslims don't belive that Christians or Jews are dissbelivers.

[ahinton]

I am not a muslim, but certainly if one thrusts the Qu'ran and is a good muslim one should have nothing against christians or jews.

Sura II, Chapter 62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Muslims don't belive that Christians or Jews are dissbelivers.

True ones don't, to be sure. It is therefore all the more shameful that certain fanatical so-called "Muslim fundamentalists" are so selective in their reading and interpretation of the Qu'ran as to give quite the opposite impression os dedication and devotion to Islam; it would not be a bad thing if this very verse were put on some kind of notice board and hung up outside every Mosque (except, perhaps, what was once - and perhaps still is, for all I know - the only Mosque in Mauritius which was - and perhaps still is, for all I know - very close to the Catholic Church)...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

True ones don't, to be sure. It is therefore all the more shameful that certain fanatical so-called "Muslim fundamentalists" are so selective in their reading and interpretation of the Qu'ran as to give quite the opposite impression os dedication and devotion to Islam; it would not be a bad thing if this very verse were put on some kind of notice board and hung up outside every Mosque (except, perhaps, what was once - and perhaps still is, for all I know - the only Mosque in Mauritius which was - and perhaps still is, for all I know - very close to the Catholic Church)...

Best,

Alistair

I agree. Stupid "muslims" who say that God would have wanted us to kill all the jews in the world, are simply stupid. Many so-called muslims cannot even read. And the Qu'ran is very difficult to read and understand.

I am not saying that all muslims who cannot read are stupid, but they can easely be fooled be fanatical "muslims" with agendas. Most of them are  of course completly harmless.

On a fun note, my grand-father on my father's side could not read, but prayed 5 times a day, reciting the same verse from the Qu'ran every time.  Sadly he said it all wrong, far from the poetic way in wich it is written in the Qu'ran. In the end, his son(my father) made him aware of it. But as far as I know he kept saying it the wrong way until he passed away.

[leuthold]

i am a muslim. and sincerely i can say that all people who believe in ONE GOD will be rewarded."because God(Allah) creates all the things you can see and cannot see" but there is one thing that i cant understand about christians' attitude. as far as i know, sometimes christians do beg Jesus. if christians believe that Jesus was a messiah and he was just a human(we believe in jesus too), why do they deify him? (pls believe me, i dont want to blacken your religion) in my opinion, if you believe in ONE GOD you should do beg only ONE GOD...

And the Qu'ran is very difficult to read and understand

Actually Qu'ran is very simple to read and understand. just, we should read it in arabic. and it is not open to interpretation at all. the imperatives and the illicits are certain.

[mephisto]

i am a muslim. and sincerely i can say that all people who believe in ONE GOD will be rewarded."because God(Allah) creates all the things you can see and cannot see" but there is one thing that i cant understand about christians' attitude. as far as i know, sometimes christians do beg Jesus. if christians believe that Jesus was a messiah and he was just a human(we believe in jesus too), why do they deify him? (pls believe me, i dont want to blacken your religion) in my opinion, if you believe in ONE GOD you should do beg only ONE GOD... Actually Qu'ran is very simple to read and understand. just, we should read it in arabic. and it is not open to interpretation at all. the imperatives and the illicits are certain.

Hm, I have  a huge arabic muslim familly on my father side, and most people say that the Qu'ran still is very difficult to understand in Arabic. Many of these people are highly educated btw.

If you want to learn about Christians view of Jesus you have to read the Bible (new testament), but you could try to study the Trinity: God, Jesus and the holy spirit.

Wikipedia(highly unreliable on many issues) explains the trinty in this way:

In Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons: the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth), and the Holy Spirit.

This is also the way I understand the trinity after having read the new testament and studied it in school. But I am FAR from an expert on this topic.

[pianistimo]

how can i help but not respond to a topic (not started by me, btw) that is of significant interest in my life.  i tend to agree with leuthold, mephisto - and others that allah is one and the same as God the Father.  i don't see why God would create all nationalities and only favor one.  the assumption is that this one race (jewish) is chosen above all other for it's faithfulness.  and, yet - jews typically do not believe the one God sent - Yeshua (who came in the spirit of elijah and prophecied what would happen 'in the latter days'). now Muhammad was also supposedly given a vision (not by God himself - but through the archangel Gabriel).  and who am i to doubt the veracity.  God reaches many people through many means.  in fact, i think Jesus - after the physical ressurrection and before he ascended to his Father also preached the gospel to places like china and japan (or whatever empires they were called then).  when he mentions in the bible of preaching to the unsaved - it is that he 'descended' - this could also mean - went to the depths or other side of the world.  he preached the gospel to those who were 'lost.'  noone has an excuse that 'i didn't hear the gospel.'  God is fair.

do you know that in a remote province of china - there was found (from around Christ's time) a stone engraving of the scene in bethlehem - three kings - and also images of what Yeshua was preaching?  now, if jews believe in yeshua and the OT - they should also believe ISAIAH's message- who prophecied how the messiah would be born in bethlehem!  how he would not be particularly good-looking - but not bad either.  how he would die - and see his own bones.  how his enemies would surround him like vultures. 

when you look at OT prophecies - you see that Jesus Christ came to take away the penalty of sin.  DEATH. this is always the case for sin whether you live now and die later.  everyone is going to die.  muhammad could not do this.  he was probably sent to prophecy to the muslims - but his purpose was never to be a SAVIOR.  He never spoke of himself as a savior did he?  He never spoke of prayers being directed through him as an intercessor like Jesus Christ.  the archangel Gabriel simply gave him a message.  now - many parts of this message are similar to jewish and christian thought.  to believe in the ONE God.

God explains his oneness by how Jesus Christ lived his life.  If Jesus was not 'one' with God - he would be as the devil (fighting amongst his demons).  a house 'divided.'  married couples can be 'one' - by being faithful, by thinking about what the other most wants, and by sacrificing one's own life for them if necessary.  God the Father deemed that we (his children) would need a 'high priest' to intercede for sin.  otherwise, we would all be liars - and He the foremost (if there was no such thing as sin - and no penaly for sin).  in fact, satan would be proven true - since he said to eve 'you shall not surely die....'

now - if we are all going to die and we know this is fact - then why should we not seek what the bible calls 'eternal life?'  some say living forever in this state would be hell.  but, what if we do not really know the state that we should be raised in?  incorruptible.  sometimes we only see the pains of sin in this life (as witnessed by the OT punishments)and nowdays nobody follows the bible anyways - in judgement.  the pains of sin are like gravity.  if you kill someone - it is likely you'll be killed in prison.  if you cheat on one person - they'll probably cheat on you.  God has intimate ways of taking each of the ten commandments and creating a blessing and curse that no human can do away with.  if you steal - you will still have a guilt complex even if not caught.  there are basic fundamental laws of society that exist because God made our minds comprehend what is good and evil even if we don't acknowledge the spiritual world.

now - if some of us are incorrect and there is no spiritual world - then why does it matter so much?  why do people argue so much over religion (even if they are irreligious?) i would think that if it was a light matter - they would simply be ignored.  laughing once and done with.  but, this topic seems to always bring a contention.  why?  because there is the UNKNOWN.  just like paul mentioned the 'UNKNOWN God.'  He was unknown because He was UNBELIEVED.  and how can they believe without the gospel.  that is why the gospel must be preached to the entire world - that it can be saved without reproach of people saying 'i never heard it.'

the entire world will hear it.  then, it will be like 10 virgins.  five had oil (the holy spirit and believed) and five did not.  when the destruction of the earth comes - five will have access to the power of the Holy Spirit and be transformed from this life to the next - 'in a twinkling of an eye - at the LAST TRUMPET.'  the trumpet that sounds - is announcing a KING.  JEsus Christ.  He is said to rule for a thousand years.  that is in revelations.  everyone seems to focus on the 'unfairness' of God - but not think about the redemption that Jesus Christ brought.  THis proves the oneness of God.  HIS LOVE.  it is never inconsistent and always careful to give warning before any punishment would occur.  the punishment that is coming to this world is for disobedience to his laws and for impunity to his salvation (free, btw). 

but, it is a choice.  otherwise - we should all be robots.

[pianistimo]

oh.  and i forgot to say - that according to the bible - salvation comes 'to the jew first....' because Jesus Christ is returning to his temple - but it DOESN't say 'to the jew ONLY' 
in fact, paul mentions that by their hardness of heart  - many others were allowed to enter into the kingdom of God and be 'grafted' into the vine.  so 'chosen' people after Jesus Christ's ressurrection doesn't mean RACE - but is dual in meaning and means having 'the mind' of God - or the oneness of his LOVE for all people.  if we do not have love we are become as clanging cymbals.  love is the 'oneness' that God shows throughout all christians and believers.

the man who buried Jesus Christ - joseph of aramithea - was relatively a baby in christian terms.  but, by 'faith' he entered.  so did rahab (a prostitute, btw) because she believed without fully understanding all the ramifications.  she merely said - 'we know that you worship the ONE true God...we have heard what He did for moses at the red sea - we watched you destroy the amorite kings and how your God was WITH you... i know that he will give you victory....'  So, she asked the men who were spies in the land of canaan to protect her and her family.  and they were.  can God not do this at the 'end of days?'  of course, He can!  if you want real protection (even without truly understanding yet) - simply believe that God IS God - and HE CAN do anything.  including protect the creation He has made.  it is said that the 'last days' will be like the days of noah.  some will be protected and others allowed to feel the pain that hatred and strife bring.

handel's messiah points to when Jesus will intervene in human affairs.  rev. 19:6 'hallelujiah, for the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.'   and 19:1 'hallelujah, Salvation and glory and power belong to our God....'  also, isaiah speaks 'so the ransomed of the Lord will return, and come with joyful shouting to Zion; and everlasting joy will be on their heads, they will obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will fell away....'  this great multitude of voices will be from all the nations and not just one.  that is the fairness and oneness of God.  believe it or not - we - as the human race were created ONE at the beginning too!  we have adam and eve and before that God as our ancestor.  we are made in God's image - 'and it does not yet appear what we shall be - but we know that we shall be like Him....'  spirit!

[pianistimo]

sorry to keep going - but you can see many opposites in this world:

racism vs. love of all humans
mercy  vs. accusations
kindness vs. envy and hatred
longsufferring vs shorttemperedness

if you can find any virtues without the Holy Spirit emanating from God's oneness - it would be magic and fairly vapid.  satan can appear as an angel of light - but, he has alternate plans.  to destroy humanity by helping them destroy themselves.  'as a man thinks, so he is....'

do you ever hear music that completely and utterly presents truth?  how about television.  or news?  does it uplift your mind and make you peaceful and happy or needing a fix of somekind of drug, drink, or depression med?  i think that proof that our society is run by satan is that there is no peace.  no peaceful thoughts.  only war.

what if billboards presented good ideas - like 'go home to your wife and drink smirnoff vodka....'  or 'join the peacecorps - and not the army....'  'eat vegetables'  and so forth.  after this many years of bad results from societal prescriptions for happiness - why don't people figure out their own.  that it might be found in the pages of the bible.  it's like women only going for the 'bad' men - and realizing later that the guy who stood beside them thru thick and thin (Jesus Christ) was for their safety and survival and happiness.

[pianistimo]

if you want some interesting reading - read how the eastern han dynasty started.  we know there was a 'great earthquake' at the time that Jesus died and another when he was ressurrected.  and, that entire empires and worlds were shaken and shifted.  the eastern han dynasty - imo, started as christian believe it or not.  this is my deepest belief.  that God began anew with the entire WORLD and it was fairly cateclismic at the time of his ressurrection.  (also, i read that possibly the apostle thomas had preached as far as china).

https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/727602/posts

here are the reliefs which include five loaves and two fish (yi vessel):
https://www.christianityinchina.org/Common/Admin/showNews_auto.jsp?Nid=304&Charset=big5

[pianistimo]

this article somewhat explains how Christ preached to the 'spirits in prison....'  or in our modern day terms - the unsaved.  those who never heard the gospel.  if HE was God - wouldn't he be fair and preach it to the world as He said it would go out to the entire world?https://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/spiritsinprison.html  He sent his disciples to do the same.  to preach the gospel to the world.  first going to the 'lost sheep of the house of israel....'  but, Jesus himself surely would not wait until the end of time to reach china, russia, japan, india, pakistan, etc.  and i find it interesting that all of them believe in the 'oneness' of the universe.  this mystical element that paul called the 'unknown God....' - and one which is mistaken for 'the dragon' at times.  in china - where did the idea of the 'dragon' first come from?  we know that komodo dragons actually exist now - but in ancient times i imagine that there were beasts that job mentions that literally were called dragons.  the chinese were aware of them and gave them 'godlike' qualities and appeasement.  but, did the early eastern Han dynasty 'worship' the dragon?  i don't  think so.  i think they warned the chinese about the dragon (himself).  but, it became a sort of worship again - many years after Jesus Christ preached the gospel to them himself - in the Spirit.  they were warned about the great dragon - and his power.   if one chooses to be overcome by that spirit - it is a spirit of warfare.  martial arts often use this symbol.  why?  perhaps a symbology for protection from death - and also death itself.  but, satan cannot 'give' us eternal life through martial arts. 

i would go so far as to say - if a person is truly irreligious - they will see religious symbology in martial arts and consider it a 'religion' as well.  they often pray first to the 'spirit powers'  - or whatever gives them energy and strength they suppose. 

wiccan people are also spiritual - and religious.  religion encompasses many thoughts and many viewpoints that aren't always christian.  some worship satan himself.  is this not a religion.  new age thinking is without Jesus Christ - therefore - worshipping another 'god.'  what is most dangerous in our age - is the subliminal approaches of religion to banking.  symbology of the occult.  the 'beast power' mentioned in the bible - is none other than satan himself disguised as working through the leadership of a world government.  so why wouldn't he use his 'light' to deceive people.  his knowledge from the beginning of time of the true powers of God perverted to other uses.  we have television shows that mock the idea and make it look impossible (demonic possession) - but can anyone actually prove that possession is not possible.  if it is not and was not - how to explain people who act this way?  who, for a time, are under the influence of a greater power and speak things they normally would not.  typically gibberish.  that is how you tell truth from lie.  can you even understand what they are saying?

[thalbergmad]

Must be a new world record

[pianistimo]

world record?  you want to see a world record?
daoism and early christianity have some marked similarities.  one being - they called it 'the way.'  there was one God - the author of all - and through all and all that lives and has it's being exists through this power.  the fact that we live and exist - shows that He also exists.

[thalbergmad]

yawn

[leuthold]

firstly, im sorry about the language. i came from a wedding. i am drunk a bit. i shouldnt drink. it s a sin. sorry...

If you want to learn about Christians view of Jesus you have to read the Bible (new testament), but you could try to study the Trinity: God, Jesus and the holy spirit.

i realised that i thought this event in my view. i repeat... i dont want to blacken your religion... also i dont want to broadcast my religion... but, according to us, jesus christ is the last messiah but one... but  the religion went astray...because christians DEIFY him...  and finally, Mohammed came the world... as the last messiah... and he taught us that we should do beg only ONE GOD that creates everything, we shouldnt deify Mohammed or his family or his dynasty...there are still some people who live in his dynasty

shows that He also exists.

God(Allah) still exists and creates... every true muslims live with respect to Qu'ran... im sorry about the fanatic muslims that attack some west countries. they can be well educated or not, they have gone astray too definitely.
 i didnt know the Trinity and i dont want to interfere with your religion, but the Trinity is still wrong for me. God(Allah) is being ONE according to us and Mohammed is the last messiah of GOD.. all people(muslims,christians,jews etc.) should do beg ONE GOD(Allah)... ( if you read the Qu'ran,  you will learn a lot truths about life.) the important thing is not to believe in the Trinity, it s to believe in the rules of GOD( ALLAH) the rules of GOD  is the nature of universe. i repeat, i dont want to interfere with your religion... i just want to express my truths and correct your beliefs about Islam...

 Yours Sincerely....

[mephisto]

Christians only belive in one God too.

[mike_lang]

i didnt know the Trinity and i dont want to interfere with your religion, but the Trinity is still wrong for me. God(Allah) is being ONE according to us and Mohammed is the last messiah of GOD.. all people(muslims,christians,jews etc.) should do beg ONE GOD(Allah)...

God is indeed one - one nature, three persons.  The doctrine of the trinity explains the inner life of God, as revealed by Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit through Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and the teaching magisterium of the Church.  Gn 1:26: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."  This is no mere royal plural.

Regarding the messiah, there is one - Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, the second person of the Blessed Trinity. 

As for his divine nature, I cite Jn 8:58: "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."  Additionally, I direct you to Jn 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

[pianistimo]

i was just going to quote about 'in the beginning was the Word....' as well.  i think that it is no small miracle that Jesus Christ became a man.  if He was born of a virgin - how could He not have been God.  and yet - the dichotomy of being born into a sinful world seems so unlikely to us.  i think it is because of the inability to wrap one's head around the implausible - makes some less likely to accept that Jesus was anything but a prophet.  Hey, many of the jews believe the same.  that He was only a prophet.

but, no matter- Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  He is and was God.  from the beginning of time.  muhammad was a man.  he died.  the bible says that Jesus Christ was the 'second adam.'  as in adam ALL DIE - so in Christ shall all be made alive...'  there is noone else that can supplant the Word.  the power of God.  not a prophet who heard from the angel Gabriel and NOT GOD himself.  Jesus heard directly from God the Father.  that is because He was God's own Son.  His dearly beloved son, with whom He was 'well pleased.'

if the trinity was true - the disciples would not have had to wait for the manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost (50 days later).  they had been with Jesus Christ himself and he could have literally simply touched them and given them the gift himself.  but, He required that they wait until He ascended to the Father.  why?  because He IS ONE.  He and the Father have the same mind.  that is what makes them one with the Spirit of Love.  it is not divisive and waits for each other - in love and patience.  being 'one' is difficult to translate properly inthe language of each person - but as i read the bible - satan and the demons are not 'one' because they do not think alike.  they are in chaos.

we can be 'one' with God, too.  the trinity separates the God plane from the man plane - but God says that we are also sons - and heirs of  the promise.  who can intercede for us?  a priest?  ha.  Jesus IS a high priest.  we need no other.  king David said, 'against Thee only have i sinned, done evil in Thy sight - that Thou speaking may be just and in judgement right....'  also, he said 'call no man Father...'  john 5:39 'you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life....'

[mike_lang]

His dearly beloved son, with whom He was 'well pleased.'
...if the trinity was true...

I don't know whether it is the Baptism of the Lord that you speak of or the Transfiguration, but in the case of the Baptism, the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ as the Father's voice was heard.  This is a key piece of scriptural evidence for the existence of the Blessed Trinity, as it was manifested at this occasion.

...but as i read the bible...

Ah - this may be the key... 

Perhaps one would be keen to investigate the only Church of Christ on Earth which holds apostolic succession.  With so many possible interpretations of the same scriptural passage, it is a question of magisterial authority.

[mike_lang]

we can be 'one' with God, too.  the trinity separates the God plane from the man plane - but God says that we are also sons - and heirs of  the promise.  who can intercede for us?  a priest?  ha.  Jesus IS a high priest.  we need no other.  king David said, 'against Thee only have i sinned, done evil in Thy sight - that Thou speaking may be just and in judgement right....'  also, he said 'call no man Father...'  john 5:39 'you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life....'

We are not substantially one with God - our potential unity with God is essentially different than Christ's necessary unity - but we can unite our wills with God's and unite our sufferings to Christ's sufferings.

All ordained priests have priesthood vicariously through Christ, the only High Priest.  Holy Orders were instituted in order to perpetuate his paschal sacrifice throughout the ages in time.  By Christ's power, priests make present the sacrifice of Calvary at every mass.  "This IS my body, given for you...do this in memory of me."  Note that he did not say "this is a symbol of my body, given for you..."  (Sorry, this is a bit longwinded, but perhaps it is the appropriate means by which to answer posts of a similar nature.) 

"Call no man Father": Again, an issue of semantics.  Father is a title used for priests, as are the leaders of the spiritual flock which is their parish.  This usage of father is essentially different than that of "Father" in the Blessed Trinity.  The word Father expressed the priest's role in the church - a defender, protector, teacher.

[pianistimo]

sorry if i seem intolerant of your views.  i don't mean to be so in this discussion - and i hear your viewpoint.  it is interesting to get so many critical sides to so many religions.  when you are raised a certain way - you tend to view your side as perfect and without any sort of critical thought necessary because certainly 'the church fathers' would have worked this out.  but did they?  did they actually need to work out the 'trinity.'

what if we ARE essentially going to be ressurrected in the same manner as Jesus Christ and ultimately rule with Him in His kingdom.  'gods' as it were.  even certain of the jews were mad at Jesus because he called God his own Father.  'Truly, truly, i say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.  For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and greater works than these will He show Him, that you may marvel.  For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.  For not even the Father judges anyne, but He has given all judgement to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.  He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him....truly truly I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life....'

now, in the catholic faith there are many 'steps' - rote learning.  this is like telling someone to play hanon over and over.  is it necessary if all we need is belief in Jesus Christ?  i'm just asking.  why the 'traditions of men.'  many catholic traditions are just that.  they are not in the bible.  i can explain a few that i mean if you want.

[pianistimo]

i john 3:1 'see how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are.  for this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.  beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be.  we know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is....'

He said - when you pray, pray in secret - and your Father in heaven who sees you will reward you (or something to that effect).  now, both charity and prayer are outward show in the catholic faith.  why?  why is it necessary to show  piety so much?  why can't you just go about your business and not let anybody know?

why do saints need to be 'sainted.'  can't God do this?  i thought that was His job?  who is taking the role of Christ. the pope.  He's got a fish hat on.  why a fish.  dagon.  that's the 'god.'  this stems from worshipping another religion. mystery babylon.  mithraic worship is also in the catholic worship service.  sun worship.  circular wafers and even the lettering symbolizes who is actually being worshipped. 

if people knew even half of what the catholic church has subsumed from pagan origins - they'd croak.  did you know that mother theresa took a hindu rite in her 'sainthood' ceremony?  that's right.  she may seem to be the righteous 'mother.'  but, who can actually call themselves 'mother.'  mother of what?  semiramis was a mother.  this mother figure figures a lot in catholicism?  but, the virigin did not have an immaculate conception like Jesus Christ.  therefore - she is not 'immaculate'  and she is not the mother of anyone but her own children (which - did she do?  the bible says that women should be 'keepers at home' able to care for their own children and family first before being 'leaders' of other women).

if you want a good read - read about mystery babylon and how sun worship and christian worship became entwined wayyy before the roman emperors (such as constantine).  he was christian, btw, on his deathbed.  what he did before that was to combine pagan and christian together.  it's all in the history books.

[mike_lang]

when you are raised a certain way - you tend to view your side as perfect and without any sort of critical thought necessary

Of course, I believe that it is perfect - the Catholic faith is the faith of the fathers of the Church, handed down from Christ himself.  But I did not come to this conclusion without great effort, study and prayer.  Nevertheless, there is a point after which one trusts in the authority of the Universal Church, the authority of the Successor of Peter, and the unity of the Body with the Head, Christ Himself.  The fundamental question is: Who has the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture?  The answer to this question is undeniable: the Church which was established by Christ and founded on the man called "rock" by Christ, Simon Peter.  The Church which holds in Holy Tradition that oral teachings that were passed on throughout the centuries from the Church fathers.  2 Thess 2:15: "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

because certainly 'the church fathers' would have worked this out.  but did they?  did they actually need to work out the 'trinity.'

I am not sure what you ask here...

now, in the catholic faith there are many 'steps' - rote learning.  this is like telling someone to play hanon over and over.  is it necessary if all we need is belief in Jesus Christ?  i'm just asking.  why the 'traditions of men.'  many catholic traditions are just that.  they are not in the bible.  i can explain a few that i mean if you want.

A certain amount of rote learning is necessary in any discipline.  I would, rather than comparing it to the first 20 Hanons ad nauseum, compare instead to the learnings of technical principles and theoretical fundamentals as tools for greater understanding of the musical whole.  In this case, faith precedes understanding - it is not that the two are mutually exclusive, but that one must accept by the authority of the Church what she teaches.  Understanding comes with time; this is many teachings are mysteries of faith.  Their depths must be plumbed over a lifetime.

No - not all traditions are in the bible.  There is a difference between Tradition and traditions.  I'm not sure which you speak of - the oral teachings of the Church over the millenia (Tradition) or the particular ritual conventions (traditions).  Perhaps you could clarify this for me?

[pianistimo]

https://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294395,00.html

why did mother theresa have doubts?  (all of us do - so i'm not saying she's the only one.  could it be that she needed more of what only Christ can give and not men's praise.  the pope and the bishops gave her plenty.  she wanted God's approval.  i think she probably got it - but much like the thief on the cross.  she realized that all the outward show was nothing.  just as with ANY of us.  she was NO BETTER or worse - although wayyy more humanitarian than most of us.  what makes each of us worthy?  that men tell us so?  no that is tradition.  that the church has POWER).

the power of the church is corrupt.  it tells people they are worthy to take different offices?  what gives people power in the catholic church?  why is it secretive?  what is so secret about the gospel?  why does the church hoard relics?  these are just a few of those discriminate traditions.  why can't priests marry?  why should nuns be forced to be celibate?  there is nothing in the bible saying those who worship God should be celibate.  also, what about sexual abuse.  did you know in times past (historic finds) there were aborted babies bones around monastaries.  it was the nuns getting in on with the priests.

this is only the surface of what is beneath the waters.  the last pope was disappointed in his own ability to cast out demons.  he had a demon possessed child come to him and he failed to be able to help her.  doesn't that tell you something? 

[mike_lang]

He said - when you pray, pray in secret - and your Father in heaven who sees you will reward you (or something to that effect).  now, both charity and prayer are outward show in the catholic faith.  why?  why is it necessary to show  piety so much?  why can't you just go about your business and not let anybody know?

There is a difference between ostentation and witness to the Truth - one cannot bear witness to the Lord in private.  Some people go over the top, admittedly, but remember that there is a difference between the man whose outward display is a substitute for inner life and the man whose light shines and lights the way for others.

why do saints need to be 'sainted.'  can't God do this?  i thought that was His job?  who is taking the role of Christ. the pope. 

For them to be "sainted," as you say, is for their sainthood to be acknowledged on Earth.  It is an acknowledgment that they are in fact in Heaven.  

He's got a fish hat on.  why a fish.  dagon.  that's the 'god.'  this stems from worshipping another religion. mystery babylon.  mithraic worship is also in the catholic worship service.  sun worship.  circular wafers and even the lettering symbolizes who is actually being worshipped. 

What are you ranting about?  As for the circular wafers of unleavened bread, I do not know the particular theology of it, but suspect it is symbolic of Christ's role as the light of the world...

[pianistimo]

God has the only book that proves one's sainthood.  it is called 'the book of life.'  the catholics can go and saint 1000 people and it doesn't mean diddly squat.  is mother theresa any more a saint than the people she ministered to who had to live in squalor or had some problem with health or disease?  no.  she was NO BETTER.  the true gospel does not make distinctions of person.  the catholic church does.

in fact, i would go so far to say that any of us who live with a higher standard of living are but mere servants to those who have it rougher in this life.

[mike_lang]

God has the only book that proves one's sainthood.  it is called 'the book of life.'  the catholics can go and saint 1000 people and it doesn't mean diddly squat.

Yes, God has the book of life.  He knows who was to come to him, who is coming to him, and who will be with him in at the end of the age.  Again, canonization is simply the recognition on Earth of the fact that a particular deceased individual is indeed in the Lord's book of life.  I suggest you investigate the canonization process before you begin to make baseless assumptions about our Faith.

[pianistimo]

but, they haven't seen it.  therefore they are frauds and fakes.

[mike_lang]

Do yourself a favor:

https://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-Gift-U-S/dp/0385479859/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-4465293-0358031?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189215333&sr=8-4

[pianistimo]

somehow i feel like thal is towards my religious views.  i don't want to buy from your store.  it's full of trash instead of FREE in (like in the bible).  i don't need prayer beads.  i don't need crosses.  all i need is Jesus Christ.

JEsus said that we don't need to repeat prayers over and over.  what do catholics do in this so called 'catechism?'

if you only look at the pope's inability to cast out demons - you see that Jesus Christ witnessed properly.  'but, if i cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.....He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.....'  the proof is in the proverbial pudding.

'and it came about while he said these things, one of the women in the crowd (posessed, mind you) raised her voice and said to Him, 'blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts at which you nursed.'  but He said, 'on the contrary, blessed are those who hear the Word of God and observe it....'

[mike_lang]

what do catholics do in this so called 'catechism?' 

The Church lays forth her doctrine - it is a complete summary of Catholic dogma and authentic instruction in the Catholic faith.  It is, in essence, our creed.

[mike_lang]

JEsus said that we don't need to repeat prayers over and over.

If it is the rosary of which you speak, this is only one of many ways to pray.  It is not necessary to repeat prayers, over and over again, though it is traditional to do so in the rosary, and (additionally) serves a meditative purpose when used in conjunction with contemplation of the mysteries.

[pianistimo]

this is what the vatican says of Mary.  read it closely:
it's part of the catechism

https://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

she is called 'the mother' of the church.  like semiramis.  if you research mystery babylon you'll see who this is imitating.  she is a goddess!  not the Mary that we are thinking of.  she has morphed. 

who are Christ's mother and brothers?  those who hear the Word and believe!  and, the 'bride' of Christ is the Church.  how could it also be his MOTHER.  this would be like a sexual union between mother and son.  how apt for babylon.

[mike_lang]

this is what the vatican says of Mary.  read it closely:
it's part of the catechism

https://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

And...?

[pianistimo]

mary is not divine.  not until her ressurrection from the dead.  DON'T PRAY TO HER.  it's useless.  ps she's not immaculate either.

here's where the idea of the immaculate mary (goddess) came from:
https://www.firstplumbline.net/html/israelthechurchandspiritual.html

[mike_lang]

mary is not divine.  not until her ressurrection from the dead.  DON'T PRAY TO HER.  it's useless.

Adoration is reserved for God alone, but we certainly pray to the Blessed Mother and to the saints that they will intercede on our behalf.  Who has a closer relationship to Christ than the Virgin Mary, the Mediatrix, the Advocate, his Mother?  Would you not ask a member of the court to put a good word in for you with the King?  Would that not bear more weight than your own unaided plea to the King?

[pianistimo]

mary is dead and buried.  prayer to her would be like praying to your grandfather.  how much help is that?  btw, cush died and semiramis his wife married her own son (nimrod).  obelisks were put up all over the city (in memory of cush's best parts). 

did you know the vatican has an obelisk (phallic symbol) as well as the white house and other places that have allowed these occultic symbols of power which came from BABYLON and later egypt.  babylon was the center of human knowledge and wisdom.  later what was brought into egypt was a combination of the knowledge of the 'chaldeans and babylonians' and also abraham - a righteous man of God.  so we have the 'jacobites' which followed 'i am' and had knowledge of the wisdom of God - and the mystery religions which trusted in 'half -man -gods' that negated any need for a redeemer. 

[mike_lang]

mary is dead and buried.  prayer to her would be like praying to your grandfather.  how much help is that?

Well - I don't know about the grandfather, since we do not know if he is in Heaven, as much as I hope he is.  The Blessed Mother, on the other hand, was assumed directly to Heaven - besides the fact that she is very much alive in the company of God, the angels and the saints, she is technically not buried.  In any case, this invalidates the comparison.  Perhaps you would like to reread the catechism which you so urged me to read closely?

[pianistimo]

she was not assumed to heaven because no one will rise until Jesus Christ returns - and we witness the 'first ressurrection.'  otherwise - the glory would be premature to her.  we would be praying to two gods.  a goddess and a God.  what blasphemy.

[mike_lang]

we would be praying to two gods.  a goddess and a God.  what blasphemy.

How does this constitute deification?

P.S.

More reading material for you:

https://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

[mike_lang]

she was not assumed to heaven because no one will rise until Jesus Christ returns - and we witness the 'first ressurrection.'

#966, CCC: "The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians..."

[pianistimo]

john 3:13 the BIBLE says (forget the catholic crap) 'no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of man....'

john 3:36 'he who believes in the Son (not Mary!) has ETERNAL LIFE; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him....'  this is saying that we have only one source.  not two or three.  the Father and Son are One.  no mention of this 'trinity' including MARY AS THE IMMACULATE VIRGIN OR REPRESENTATION OF HOLY SPIRIT.  AS LIFE GIVER.  she is not semiramis and a goddess.  she is a human.  DEAD.  waiting the ressurrection.

[mike_lang]

john 3:13 the BIBLE says (forget the catholic crap) 'no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of man....'

That is in Christ's speech to Nicodemus - the Assumption does not occur till long after Jesus' ascension.  Is there a contradiction between these two things that I am not seeing?

[pianistimo]

show me where Mary ascended in the bible.  it is nowhere to be found. 

I cor 15:22-23 'for as in adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.  but each in his own order:  Christ the firstfruits, after that those who are Christ's AT HIS COMING....'

[mike_lang]

no mention of this 'trinity'

2 Cor 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" - one of many passages which point to the triune nature of God.

[mike_lang]

show me where Mary ascended in the bible.  it is nowhere to be found. 

Why do you deprive yourself of Sacred Tradition?  Again:

2 Thess 2:15: "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

[pianistimo]

these traditions were not taught by the disciples.  they were taught by mythriaic tradition which goes back to egypt and babylon.  a goddess mother figure.  they worship her JUST LIKE JESUS.  she has power to hear prayer, to even FORGIVE!  this is unconscionable.  let alone 'preserved free from ALL ORIGINAL STAIN OF HUMAN SIN!' 

just as 'indulgences' are wrong in any case - how much more wrong when they come by a QUEEN.  queen of what?  queen of heaven?  that's also astarte!   

have you ever read about babylonian worship?  i'll give you some sites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

the halos that you see around saints are a sort of veneration of sol invictious.