Religion

[pianistimo]

post #590 - i assume, alistair -refers to your composition and the judgement day.  how should i know any more about that than thal's reference to a vicar?

vicar, btw, means 'acting in place of someone.'  how can someone be a vicar for Christ.  how about disciple.  at least that's a term in the bible.  a lot more people can be disciples than vicars.  vicars want to assume they are special.

the bible says that nobody is special in the church excepting God.  otherwise - Christ would have gone around in fancy robes.  He didn't.  not even our savior thought himself above any person he served. 

in the judgement - gayness will be a misdemeanor compared to ursurping the true gospel for a false gospel.  and magic for miracle.  the babylonian and egyptian religious ideas were the ones that had non-married priests (sometimes eunuchs) serving.  nowhere in the bible does it say anyone HAS to marry - but there is also no place that says 'priests must be unmarried.'

[ahinton]

post #590 - i assume, alistair -refers to your composition and the judgement day.  how should i know any more about that than thal's reference to a vicar?

No, Susan, it does not. Please read your post #586 to which it refers and which I quote above mine. It is about your assertion that I could talk my way out of something or other with God and, by implication, seek to convince him that I am without sin. Sometimes it seems that you don't even read your own posts, let alone those of others. Now perhaps you can respond to it.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

in the judgement - gayness will be a misdemeanor compared to ursurping the true gospel for a false gospel. 

Paragraphs of piffle and no answers.

[pianistimo]

alistair, with the amount of joking you do with me, i am amazed that you cannot withstand a joke from me.  remember the pole-dancing jokes?  now, if i joke with you - being that i understand from you that you consider the concept of sin quite far-fetched ...that if you were to convince God that you hadn't sinned by some reason or other - perhaps blaming it on Satan - that He might actually listen.  btw, i am giving you an answer that many have used previously.  and, for the record - everyone has sinned - so as you said, nobody can convince God of anything if He doesn't want to be convinced.

and, thal - just stop hounding me to give you an answer to judging the world.  the saints are judged right now.  how do we have time to judge others if we are in the process of being judged now?  this will determine our spiritual rebirth at Jesus Christ's second coming (or our own death if it is sooner).  a birth into the kingdom of God or not.  surely, our minds are not looking at other people if we know we cannot even be with God if we are imperfect.  God makes us perfect.  therefore, we look to Him for perfection in our lives by asking for daily forgiveness. 'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors...lead us not into temptation - but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom and power and the glory FOREVER.' 

this prayer automatically asks God for forgivenss on the condition that we ourselves forgive others.  it's interesting how the mind of God works. it works on the concept of mercy.

[timothy42b]

pianistimmo,

Why did God try to kill Moses as he attempted to return to Egypt after the Exodus?

And why did an all powerful God fail in his attempt?

And how was an omniscient God fooled so easily by the fake circumcision done by Moses's girlfriend (and secret from his wife)?  (and with a stone knife, ouch!!  probably hurt as much as your Brazilian wax) 

Seriously, I can't explain this one, but it's straight out of the Bible, and I know the Holy Spirit will give you the wisdom to answer.  I gotta admit, I'm stumped here. 

[wotgoplunk]

For God's sake woman, answer my questions.

Shellfish?
Gold Jewellery?
Cotton-blend?

[ahinton]

alistair, with the amount of joking you do with me, i am amazed that you cannot withstand a joke from me.

Of course I can withstand a joke from you; what I cannot do, however, is UNDERstand them, or even recognise them as such, sometimes - this one in particular; I had no idea that you WERE joking and I don't think that it was obvious at all.

remember the pole-dancing jokes?

I was being perfectly serious about that! (no, I wasn't and of course I remember them!)...

now, if i joke with you - being that i understand from you that you consider the concept of sin quite far-fetched

You're very welcome to joke with me, of course, but your understanding here is incorrect; if it were correct, you would have to assume me to believe that no one ever can do or does any wrong - and if that's what you think I believe, you know far less about me than I'd assumed you might do. What I don't buy is the way in which the term "sin" is misused and overused by people with certain beliefs and obsessions, usually as part of some kind of attempted fear-mongering exercise, because I think that that is inhuman and insensitive.

...that if you were to convince God that you hadn't sinned by some reason or other - perhaps blaming it on Satan - that He might actually listen.

But even assuming that God would enter into conversation with me at all, why would you presume that I'd try to convince Him of anything of the sort? For the record, I wouldn't - any more than I'd seek to blame any of my own misdemeanours on anyone else at all.

btw, i am giving you an answer that many have used previously.  and, for the record - everyone has sinned - so as you said, nobody can convince God of anything if He doesn't want to be convinced.

I'm sure that this latter part is true, but the above should reveal to you that you've not given me a realistic response at all, as well as explaining why that happense to be so. Maybe now that I've written as I have in this post, you may care to have another try.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

and, thal - just stop hounding me to give you an answer to judging the world.  the saints are judged right now.  how do we have time to judge others if we are in the process of being judged now?  this will determine our spiritual rebirth at Jesus Christ's second coming (or our own death if it is sooner).  a birth into the kingdom of God or not.  surely, our minds are not looking at other people if we know we cannot even be with God if we are imperfect.  God makes us perfect.  therefore, we look to Him for perfection in our lives by asking for daily forgiveness. 'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors...lead us not into temptation - but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom and power and the glory FOREVER.' 

I am not asking you for judgement, only what the Bible says and what you think. Come on woman, you are not normally so shy with throwing your opinion about. Lets have one of your famous "as i see it".

Therefore i have but 2 questions:

1. Will a gay Bishop that has served God all his life be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?

2. Where was your compassionate loving God when 6,000,000 jews met their death in the concentration camps?

[mike_lang]

Therefore i have but 2 questions:

1. Will a gay Bishop that has served God all his life be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?

2. Where was your compassionate loving God when 6,000,000 jews met their death in the concentration camps?

I do not presume to know the answers to these, as the first cannot possibly be known and the second has puzzled many since its occurrence, but I will venture some speculation.

1. Although it is not impossible, I believe that much of the answer depends on whether or not the Bishop was celibate, as in the Catholic church, all are called to chastity (sexual union is limited to those wedded in Holy Matrimony).  However, nothing is impossible with the Lord.

2. The traditional answer is that suffering occurs, that a greater good may come out of it; but I do not yet know what good has emerged.  We find meaning through Christ's suffering on the cross because it is through suffering (but, of course, not suffering alone) that we are made holy.  This is a very difficult question, and demands an answer...

Best,
ML

[thalbergmad]

Thank you for your kind response in the absence of anything from Piontius Pa.

Thal

[prometheus]

2. The traditional answer is that suffering occurs, that a greater good may come out of it;

Do you really believe that god planned on the holocaust to happen so that a greater good could come from it?

[mike_lang]

Do you really believe that god planned on the holocaust to happen so that a greater good could come from it?

First of all, dear Prometheus, I don't believe that He "planned" for it to happen; I believe He allowed it to happen.  God cannot be the source of evil, which is the negation of Himself.  To address your question beyond a semantic difference, you quote my post in part but not in whole.  My point is that generally when a catastrophe occurs, the disaster leads to a good that is greater.  Consider, for example, the worldwide response to the great Tsunami that hit Thailand in 2004, or the greater security and national unity that followed September 11th.  Although perspectives on these larger catastrophic events are arguable, I have found consistently in my personal life that nothing has happened to me (or for me) without a reason or lesson to be learned.  I am not denying the tragedy of disasters, but pointing out that we often find meaning in suffering through the good that comes [however much] later.

This having been said, the holocaust remains an enigma (for this Christian, at least), and I do not know what good has come out of it, or if good will come out of it.  This inhuman outrage defies such answers, it seems.  As I said, with regard to the holocaust, I do not know what God's mysterious purpose was in allowing it to happen, but so long as I remain a devout Christian, I cannot believe that this happened without God's consent, nor that He consented without purpose.

Best,
ML

[prometheus]

The bible claims that god created evil.


But even if he didn't, I don't believe evil exists, he did allow for suffering and death. He didn't have to.



If good things come from catastrophes and knowing this does that mean that I should cause a catastrophe so that I can help good things to happen?



Seems like a classical absurd rationalization of a christian struggeling with god and reality.

[mike_lang]

If good things come from catastrophes and knowing this does that mean that I should cause a catastrophe so that I can help good things to happen?

Should Judas have handed over Christ?

[thalbergmad]

Should Judas have handed over Christ?

It would not have been a very interesting story if he didn't. Perhaps he should not have bothered and let Jesus die peacefully in his sleep at the ripe out Biblical age of 970.

Prometheus makes a valid point.

I fail to see the good coming out of the 75 million people who died from the Black Death, unless you include the rise in the peasants wages.

Thal

[mike_lang]

It would not have been a very interesting story if he didn't. Perhaps he should not have bothered and let Jesus die peacefully in his sleep at the ripe out Biblical age of 970.
...

I fail to see the good coming out of the 75 million people who died from the Black Death, unless you include the rise in the peasants wages.

Historical interest, my friend.  Historical interest.

Best,
ML

[mike_lang]

The bible claims that god created evil.

I'm going to pick a nit here - I assume you include evil in the realm of the totality of creation.

 It is my belief that while God created man with free will, that is, the ability to choose union with God or not, God did not create evil itself, as evil is not a something, but the "absence" of God.  Evil is the the choice to disobey God, and is the antithesis of God - He simply created the freedom to choose Him (or not).  (It is similar to the dispute over whether Hell is an actual place, or simply eternal existence apart from God, cut off from the Source of Life.)

Best,
ML

[thalbergmad]

Thanks for returning some sense and balance into this thread.

Your comments are informative and interesting.

Thal

[ahinton]

Thanks for returning some sense and balance into this thread.

Your comments are informative and interesting.

Thal

And when questions are asked, ML usually answers them to the best of his ability. I don't want to say anything about following wise examples, but I think you can read between the lines...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

It is refreshing to have reasoned responses instead of being flooded with a cesspool of unrelated Biblical quotes.

Hopefully SS will get the message and keep out of this.

Thal

[timothy42b]

 I typed a long post which disappeared.

Ah, well. 

[pianochick93]

Therefore i have but 2 questions:

1. Will a gay Bishop that has served God all his life be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven?

2. Where was your compassionate loving God when 6,000,000 jews met their death in the concentration camps?

Simple answers from a "non-believer"

1. No he wont, because there is no heaven to go to.

2. He wasn't there because he didn't exist, simple.