What's on your mind now?

[ajspiano]

Hey, you are probably right..  but I can't help but wonder if the Vatican is lying to me, just like you think the government is to you..   and having not reached a point of belief on this matter does not make my view wrong. I have a right to decide, and be respected for it, just like you do. No one is wrong.

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

I just did a bit of the below, in relation to the above..  and I haven't come up with good enough answer yet.

My unyielding insistence that one side is right is not blindness. I'm not a one-sided person. I consider both sides of things, and choose the one I believe is right. I research, I ask questions, and I study.

I don't go using my lack of religion to argue points, you would do well to avoid using it to make yours. I only ask questions, and respect your opinions a long the way. Not everyone believes what you believe - and they have a right to their own beliefs .. isn't that part of your constitution too?

[clavile]

I have. And it's drafts, the Declaration of Independence, your Constitution of which it forms part, the various texts upon which it is based and a whole lot of comparative examples (including the 1936 Soviet one, which is extraordinarily good though it evidently lacked a bit in the interpretation and enforcement).

I repeat. What is so special about the US Bill of Rights? Apart from the right to bear arms, which I concede is unique (and deservedly so).

Obviously you don't know the history behind the Bill of Rights.

[49410enrique]

This is amuurica, and we speak amuurican.

also goes by 'merica, and folks can be bilungual and also speak 'merican

[j_menz]

no one would mess with me with claws like that!

They may play havoc with some of your technique, though.  Ever seen a bear play a Chopin etude?

[ajspiano]

Obviously you don't know the history behind the Bill of Rights.

not only is J_menz a lawyer..  but in australia..  many of us also study american history a long side our own at school..  so this is pretty unlikely.

[clavile]

not only is J_menz a lawyer..  but in australia..  many of us also study american history a long side our own at school..  so this is pretty unlikely.

Obviously he doesn't, or he would see the difference. I'm not going to pull out every history book in the library and cram the information into a post only for him not to believe it.

[ajspiano]

Obviously he doesn't, or he would see the difference. I'm not going to pull out every history book in the library and cram the information into a post only for him not to believe it.

Even so..  why can't you name one point for discussion? we don't need a history lesson.. one line from the bill would be sufficient.

[clavile]

Even so..  why can't you name one point for discussion?

It was founded  to keep our government from having tyrannical power. Whole reason we left England!

[j_menz]

Obviously you don't know the history behind the Bill of Rights.

I must have missed it in amongst all that other background material. The English Bill of Rights, the Virginia Bill of Rights, the writings of Rousseau, Locke, Paine, the federalist papers, Madison's original drafts, the Congressional debate on their introduction. What "history" is not there?

[j_menz]

also goes by 'merica, and folks can be bilungual and also speak 'merican

'merican is a lnguage truly unique in that it clearly has and needs 400 different ways to say "I can feel my ateries clogging with each mouthful. Mmmmm Yum"

[clavile]

I must have missed it in amongst all that other background material. The English Bill of Rights, the Virginia Bill of Rights, the writings of Rousseau, Locke, Paine, the federalist papers, Madison's original drafts, the Congressional debate on their introduction. What "history" is not there?

Well, obviously the history you missed. Since you were the one doing the studying, I can't say what you missed. And obviously you missed the history I listed above...or just didn't understand it...

"It was founded  to keep our government from having tyrannical power. Whole reason we left England!"

[49410enrique]

'merican is a lnguage truly unique in that it clearly has and needs 400 different ways to say "I can feel my ateries clogging with each mouthful. Mmmmm Yum"

c'mon it has xtra lettuce! nom nom nom nom nom


*tries to derail the current direction of the thread....

before


after


*takes a bow. flies away.....

[j_menz]

Obviously he doesn't, or he would see the difference. I'm not going to pull out every history book in the library and cram the information into a post only for him not to believe it.

Please do. Please also include in it information on when it came to apply to each of:

Exercise of powers by State govenments

Free "blacks"

Women

Indians

Immigrants

Non property owners

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the

Religion poisons the mind.

[ajspiano]

It was founded  to keep our government from having tyrannical power. Whole reason we left England!

..you think our present governments have tyrannical power over us? Are you concerned that in australia, because we still recognize the British monarch that we will one day soon be bound and gagged by the queen?

You know we actually had a referendum and our nation voted against becoming a republic, because we have a passion for our history and because we are not subject to tyranny.. our country is as free, if not more than yours.

[j_menz]

"It was founded  to keep our government from having tyrannical power. Whole reason we left England!"

Then why wasn't it part of the original Constitution but an afterthought, a kind of "oops, left that bit out" moment?

I assume by "left England" you mean the War of Independence/American Revolution, otherwise I should point out that most of you in fact left somewhere else.  

[j_menz]

c'mon it has xtra lettuce! nom nom nom nom nom

I thought that was some of those green eggs Dr Seuss wrote about.  Lettuce seems highly improbable, unless you can deep fry lettuce. 

[49410enrique]

I thought that was some of those green eggs Dr Seuss wrote about.  Lettuce seems highly improbable, unless you can deep fry lettuce. 

lol perhaps. perhaps. perhaps.

all the history talked reminded me about the only history people seem concerned with these days....



 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It was founded  to keep our government from having tyrannical power. Whole reason we left England!

America was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free.   

[ajspiano]

Just wanted to add..

Tyrannical -
Characteristic of tyranny; oppressive and controlling.

...

As a reference in case we need to work out which of Romney's policies fit the definition, only to then say that those ones are ok because they service our own personal agendas/beliefs.

[49410enrique]

America was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free.   

really?
are you sure it wasn't....

[j_menz]

all the history talked reminded me about the only history people seem concerned with these days....



 

Not really just a 21st century phenomenon. The ancient egyptians tried to erase all record of Akhenaton (and nearly succeeded).  Fourteenth century. BC.

[j_menz]

America was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free.   

Who on the Mayflower owned a slave?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Who on the Mayflower owned a slave?

Well of course the slaves were brought afterwards.

[clavile]

..you think our present governments have tyrannical power over us? Are you concerned that in australia, because we still recognize the British monarch that we will one day soon be bound and gagged by the queen?

You know we actually had a referendum and our nation voted against becoming a republic, because we have a passion for our history and because we are not subject to tyranny.. our country is as free, if not more than yours.

Didn't say that. I'm just annoyed that people who don't know what they're talking about are arguing with me about my country(which I<< live in) and it's history.

This conversation has become so stupid. It's rather annoying when people who don't have a clue start arguing with somebody who knows about it...I can bring a TON of *AMERICANS* on here that would trample all your statements, and send each and every one of you through the wringer, because they KNOW their FACTS. One against all of you isn't enough to even TRY to convince anybody.

But then, they probably wouldn't bother joining, because it's so idiotic.

[clavile]

America was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free.   

-dying of laughter here-

No, really....

[j_menz]

Didn't say that. I'm just annoyed that people who don't know what they're talking about are arguing with me about my country(which I<< live in) and it's history.

This conversation has become so stupid. It's rather annoying when people who don't have a clue start arguing with somebody who knows about it...I can bring a TON of *AMERICANS* on here that would trample all your statements, and send each and every one of you through the wringer, because they KNOW their FACTS. One against all of you isn't enough to even TRY to convince anybody.

But then, they probably wouldn't bother joining, because it's so idiotic.

Since the only bit of "history" you have provided to us is one line from a high school text book and a quote from Thomas Jefferson, you will forgive me if I feel you may be a bit short on knowing the history of your own country. 

I'm happy to further this discussion with anyone who "knows their facts". I suggest you go either become one, or consult one. Oh, and this isn't a numbers game.

[clavile]

Since the only bit of "history" you have provided to us is one line from a high school text book and a quote from Thomas Jefferson, you will forgive me if I feel you may be a bit short on knowing the history of your own country. 

I'm happy to further this discussion with anyone who "knows their facts". I suggest you go either become one, or consult one. Oh, and this isn't a numbers game.

I don't remember looking anything up in a high school textbook for some reason...Interesting, right? I provided plenty of things for you to look into, you just didn't like it, so sorry.

Trust me. I've been consulting people who "know their facts", and incorporating those with facts I KNOW are true. I'm always very careful what I say, and to make sure it's correct, so if you want to strike up an argument with these other people who must not "know their facts" either, and helped me out some, who ALSO happen to be interested in and have studied American government and politics, feel free. You can have their e-mail addresses. By the way... they're adults, not children. But I wouldn't advise arguing with the people that actually live in America... and no, visiting isn't the same as living.


In fact, if you're SO convinced you're right, why don't you come over here and  start up a debate with  Americans who have actually STUDIED our history and politics?

I'd like to see how that turns out...

I can safely say most of America is in agreement with me, as are many other countries of the world. I've talked to people also far across the sea who have everything wonderful to say about America, the freedoms we have, compare their own countries to ours, and say what a better, freer one we are.

One such example is England.

And sadly, the bad choices of Americans are taking that away.

[ajspiano]

But claville..  you're asserting your position on the US and its constitution, in relation to other countries..   only then saying that we can't possibly know about america. In exactly the same way that you then can't possibly know about our home lands.

Beside that..  no one here is really suggesting that you are fundamentally wrong about the USA, they are actually only questioning it and asking you to back up your ideas.. which you have continually failed to do.

Then, when one of us offer a piece of information about why something doesn't add up you just declare it wrong without providing any actual point to the contrary or providing references. I'd be glad to talk about it with someone who "knows their facts" .. at the moment, j_menz is the one demonstrating that. You are not.

You actually just tie yourself in more and more knots every time you post from our perspective.. I would welcome some concise points..  since I'm more than capable of changing my mind about anything.

If you are not capable yourself of "putting us through the wringer" what makes you so sure you are right..  or did you just take someones word for it yourself? ...put me through the wringer all you like.. being proven wrong is a great way to learn.

[outin]

But I wouldn't advise arguing with the people that actually live in America...

I understand that know, never argue with someone who has the right to carry arms and has the mind set to use them against anyone who disagrees  

and no, visiting isn't the same as living.

You lived in Europe in a previous life?  

[clavile]

I understand that know, never argue with someone who has the right to carry arms and has the mind set to use them against anyone who disagrees 
You lived in Europe in a previous life? 

Right. I'm sure the majority of America shoots people they disagree with constantly.

Hmm, wish I had so I could say more. I'd love the experience; I really think it would be quite an experience to go from such freedoms here to Europe...It would provide new glimpses on how lucky I am to live in this country.

[ajspiano]

How about this .... rankings on economic freedom by country.

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

1 - hong kong
2 - singapore
3 - australia

...The US comes in at a dismal number 10..  behind canada (lol)..

EDIT:
I admire your patriotism but you're just not as well off as you think. Those stats aren't something new, its been that way for a long time..  well you know.. at least in relation to your lifetime.

[j_menz]

I don't remember looking anything up in a high school textbook for some reason...Interesting, right? I provided plenty of things for you to look into, you just didn't like it, so sorry.

You provided a one line unsourced quote.  Hardly convincing.

In fact, if you're SO convinced you're right, why don't you come over here and  start up a debate with  Americans who have actually STUDIED our history and politics?

I'd like to see how that turns out...

I studied both US history and politics at University. Some of my teachers were Americans. I passed.

I can safely say most of America is in agreement with me,

That would be the "most of America"  who just voted for Obama. Or is there another "most of America"?

[ajspiano]

..not just america either..  baring in mind I don't know how legit this is.




pakistan has got your back.

[outin]

That would be the "most of America"  who just voted for Obama. Or is there another "most of America"?

I think there is...sometimes referred to as the bible belt...

[clavile]

You provided a one line unsourced quote.  Hardly convincing.


I studied both US history and politics at University. Some of my teachers were Americans. I passed.


That would be the "most of America"  who just voted for Obama. Or is there another "most of America"?

Maybe to you. At least I know it's true off-hand, and know I researched it to be 100% positive. You would know it's true if you had really studied it.

Obviously something went wrong during or after your studies.

The "most of America"  that voted for Obama is competent enough to know that we have better freedoms than European countries.

[j_menz]

pakistan has got your back.

Pakistan and Israel, actually. Not sure why they would leave that off. (of course, the chance of them formina an alliance together seems somewhat remote)

[j_menz]

Maybe to you. At least I know it's true off-hand, and know I researched it to be 100% positive. You would know it's true if you had really studied it.

Perhaps you could enlighten me with it's source.

You should note that I am not dismissing the historical importance of the US Bill of Rights, or it's ongoing role in American life.  What I am saying is that many parts of the world have caught up, and some have exceeded, the rights and freedoms enshrined therein, whereas the US has at times struggled to live up to those lofty ideals.

[outin]

In fact, if you're SO convinced you're right, why don't you come over here and  start up a debate with  Americans who have actually STUDIED our history and politics?

I did, although I admit it was some years ago. As an exchange student I had the opportunity to take part in those same studies and discuss the matters with your countrymen/women who studied in one of YOUR universities. So although I  would never say I'm an expert in the US issues, I would say I am slightly more informed than an average US citizen is about the rest of the world.

[ajspiano]

Maybe to you. At least I know it's true off-hand, and know I researched it to be 100% positive. You would know it's true if you had really studied it.

..sounds more like hopelessly clinging to what you thought was true. If you don't know where the research is and can't quote it its not valid. Supply some actual proof and I'll gladly take your side.

For example, I concede that you ousted the UK on the heritage list.. ofcourse you're going to have to back done on the 9 countries that are ahead of you.. and stop being so dramactic the 30 or so that are ranked less free than the US but pretty much equal.


Also, given that following the US, china has the 2nd largest economy in the world and is growing and fast catching up..  you're going to have to start questioning the idea that communism is bad for a country a a whole.. even if you personally choose not to live under that system of government.

[clavile]

How about this .... rankings on economic freedom by country.

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

1 - hong kong
2 - singapore
3 - australia

...The US comes in at a dismal number 10..  behind canada (lol)..

EDIT:
I admire your patriotism but you're just not as well off as you think. Those stats aren't something new, its been that way for a long time..  well you know.. at least in relation to your lifetime.

Oh wow. Economic freedom? this is now utterly ridiculous.. surprised you would even bother to go there. If we're going to take it this way now, I'm out.

Thanks all, good discussion, but I'm through with this.

No, not a cop out, just sick of it. Call it whatever. I can only take so much before I see no worth in continuing. I lost that vision of worth about 3 hours ago...

j_menz, if it was what I said about being free of tyrannical government, I'll provide you loads of information, and gladly so.

[ajspiano]

Oh wow. Economic freedom? this is now utterly ridiculous..

seriously..?  what freedoms do you want..   EVERYTHING you do is a function of your country's economy.

yes, even your right to bear arms..  guns cost money, and they get imported and exported and taxed.. and other cool economic things that depend on you countries laws relating to tax/trade/goods and services etc etc.

What about your right to a fair trial, and legal counsel..  i'm sure j_menz knows how much he charges his clients per hour, and that he works for or started his own legal firm, which was allowed to be started because in our economically free society anyone can start a business.. J-menz would be out of a job if it wasn't for that right, and the economic freedom is what makes it possible for sometime to exercise that right..  because someone can choose to become a lawyer.

and just guessing, he uses his money to buy food, which is sometimes imported under our international trade laws.

...economic freedom is the fundamental element of a capitalist regime.

[j_menz]

J-menz would be out of a job if it wasn't for that right, and the economic freedom is what makes it possible for sometime to exercise that right..  because someone can choose to become a lawyer.

Actually, I worked as a corporate lawyer, often with close links to government. That sort of job exists even under tyrannies.

I like to keep my options open.

[j_menz]

No, not a cop out, just sick of it. Call it whatever.

Wimp out?

j_menz, if it was what I said about being free of tyrannical government, I'll provide you loads of information, and gladly so.

Please, just references. I already have copies of much of it.

[ajspiano]

Actually, I worked as a corporate lawyer, often with close links to government. That sort of job exists even under tyrannies.

I see you said "worked"..  ..so you chose to quit? i guess that's why they call it the lucky country.

Then again, maybe you were fired? ...you asked for a reference before blindly taking your employers word for something?

[outin]

Wimp out?

Lets not be too harsh, this is not a fair game. You (?) and I have had a few years behind us to clear our minds of the many silly things we were given as granted by our parents and other adults around us when very young...

[ajspiano]

Lets not be too harsh, this is not a fair game. You (?) and I have had a few years behind us to clear our minds of the many silly things we were given as granted by our parents and other adults around us when very young...

I'd been thinking that..   still..    better sooner than later to realize everything you believed as a child actually needs to be subject to questioning.

...clearly I'll be that parent that says "so, you actually believe a man in a red suit gives you presents every year?"

[j_menz]

I see you said "worked"..  ..so you chose to quit? i guess that's why they call it the lucky country.

I changed jobs away from legal work.

[ajspiano]

I changed jobs away from legal work.

rach_forever: AHA! you are a professional pianist.

[outin]

...clearly I'll be that parent that says "so, you actually believe a man in a red suit gives you presents every year?"

That's what you say now...just wait